CHP, Self-Defense apparently failed Richmonder

[TFred]

As noted, we are still waiting for the full story to come in... but in the mean time, here's another angle to consider.

Most of us have seen the fairly well-known quote from John Wayne's last movie, The Shootist, in which he played a notorious gunfighter just after the turn of the century (at the end of the gunfighter era), and in the last few weeks of his life, having been stricken with cancer. (A double metaphor, at least...)

Gillom Rogers: [Books is giving Gillom a shooting lesson] Mr. Books, How is it you've killed so many men? My spread wasn't much bigger than yours.

John Bernard Books: First of all,friend, there's no one up there shooting back at you. Second, I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't.

As we occasionally discuss here... when you carry a gun, what you are saying by that is "I may encounter a situation where I have to kill someone today." Just as the character Mr. Books well understood.

It sounds like this victim may have not been prepared to do that, and as we have also discussed, if that is the case, you absolutely do not need to be carrying a gun.

BTW, The Shootist is an excellent movie. Well worth the watch.

TFred

 

[Grapeshot]

So,, not only do I forget or confuse who I debated with in an earlier thread about gun grabs, BUT
I completely missed the entire point of what a grab really is.
I did read this entire thread before I made my redicules assertion, and for that I am sorry.
The story doesnt even lead us to believe that he was targeted to steal the gun or just robbed of whatever he had.

There is so much information out there and in here (OCDO) that it can be difficult to keep it all in order - I can personally attest to missing the mark more than once.

There is some off-line speculation that the two knew he other. I'm not going to go beyond that because I cannot confirm - it's all hearsay.

 

[BillHoo]

I'd rather my tax money go elsewhere than to feed, clothe, and sustain some low-life subhuman maggots. Prefer to see them executed.

The system does way more than simply feed, clothe and sustain them.

In our institutions of reahilitation, the inmates are educated by each other on better techniquest for crime and viciousness. They get the finest nutrition and spend their time building their bodies in the gym. to come out as Super Criminals!

 

[taurusfan]

OC gets someone killed

Wow...open carry apparently led to murder...new details emerged about this case in a story at the Times Dispatch:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...e-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/


"Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby."

 

[1245A Defender]

well,,huh,,,

MAYBE I retracted my redicules assertion too soon...

story says he was OCing..
guys followed him into the store and grabbed at his gun, then they struggled, the gun was got, the guy got shot.

Sooo,,, what do we call this?

 

[Grapeshot]

MAYBE I retracted my redicules assertion too soon...

story says he was OCing..
guys followed him into the store and grabbed at his gun, then they struggled, the gun was got, the guy got shot.

Sooo,,, what do we call this?

If it works out as true, then we call it .000001% and a tactical failure.

 

[peter nap]

MAYBE I retracted my redicules assertion too soon...

story says he was OCing..
guys followed him into the store and grabbed at his gun, then they struggled, the gun was got, the guy got shot.

Sooo,,, what do we call this?

I'm not sure where this is going Defender, but if it's going to turn into a "Everyone has to CC because OC is dangerous"....it's gonna get interesting real fast!

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

If it works out as true, then we call it .000001% and a tactical failure.

A tactical failure indeed!! I would have never let two youngssters like those to come up behind me.
I would have made some distance, showed my strong side and gave them the hairy eye!
my hand would have been guarding that gun too!

I'm not sure where this is going Defender, but if it's going to turn into a "Everyone has to CC because OC is dangerous"....it's gonna get interesting real fast!

maybe I havent been clear enough in my posts that you may have read, but I AM very much an Open Carry Advocate!!

My interest in this case is to Find, authenticate and document the First Real Case of the Antis most oft used reason
against the OC of hand guns by Law abiding citizens,
the idea that the bad guys will just take your gun away.

I thank Skidmark and Grapeshot for keeping me in line and on the pure and correct path to the true discovery of this occurence.

As Grape has pointed out on many occasions, WHEN it does happen, the statistical probability will be about .000001% overall.
Ive done some thinking about that number, and think he is wrong,,,
I think the statistical probability will be much closer to, .000000285%


ETA... just got my birthday notice from OCDO,, thanks for the reminder, Im now 59..
Time for a celebratory shot of my finest,,, but which one???

 

[peter nap]

A tactical failure indeed!! I would have never let two youngssters like those to come up behind me.
I would have made some distance, showed my strong side and gave them the hairy eye!
my hand would have been guarding that gun too!



maybe I havent been clear enough in my posts that you may have read, but I AM very much an Open Carry Advocate!!

My interest in this case is to Find, authenticate and document the First Real Case of the Antis most oft used reason
against the OC of hand guns by Law abiding citizens,
the idea that the bad guys will just take your gun away.

I thank Skidmark and Grapeshot for keeping me in line and on the pure and correct path to the true discovery of this occurence.

As Grape has pointed out on many occasions, WHEN it does happen, the statistical probability will be about .000001% overall.
Ive done some thinking about that number, and think he is wrong,,,
I think the statistical probability will be much closer to, .000000285%


ETA... just got my birthday notice from OCDO,, thanks for the reminder, Im now 59..
Time for a celebratory shot of my finest,,, but which one???

Actually, I've read them all in this thread but it's getting difficult to keep them all in the right category. (I don't remember what OCDO has for my birthday if it's 59, it's a little off:lol

I've been trying to get as much off line information on this as I can also.
It's a severe case and considering the direction the cities are going, may just be the start of attacks on both OC and CC carriers unless many of us change some habits.

 

[Grapeshot]

....snip....
As Grape has pointed out on many occasions, WHEN it does happen, the statistical probability will be about .000001% overall.
Ive done some thinking about that number, and think he is wrong,,,
I think the statistical probability will be much closer to, .000000285%


ETA... just got my birthday notice from OCDO,, thanks for the reminder, Im now 59..
Time for a celebratory shot of my finest,,, but which one???

My estimate was a SWAG - I like your figure better.

And Happy B Day - your catching up to me. :lol:
Recommend Drambuie or Colt 45, the ACP kind.

Actually, I've read them all in this thread but it's getting difficult to keep them all in the right category. (I don't remember what OCDO has for my birthday if it's 59, it's a little off:lol

I've been trying to get as much off line information on this as I can also.
It's a severe case and considering the direction the cities are going, may just be the start of attacks on both OC and CC carriers unless many of us change some habits.

Time to talk to our reps and head this one off. Will likely use the "challenge" story to illustrate the point of the exceptional rarity + personal knowledge allegorical events of OC stopping crime.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

Sooo,,, what do we call this?

I stick to my original assertion...

LSA.

 

[taurusfan]

Bad habits die hard

may just be the start of attacks on both OC and CC carriers unless many of us change some habits.

How about an example of bad habit?

 

[MSC 45ACP]

How about an example of bad habit?

LSA.
Loss of Situational Awareness.
Something like reading a book and maybe getting "too far into it" to realize bad things may be happening near you.
I sometimes read books while eating at fast food places. Sometimes I am OCing, sometimes CC.
When I am OCing, I visualize a target on my back, forehead and everywhere in between.
MY head is constantly on a swivel and thinking about a tactical solution to every potential threat. This is widely known as being in "Condition Yellow"
This can be quite tiring at first. If you're maintaining proper awareness, you may be quite tired at the end of each day. If you aren't at least a little bit "stressed", then your "giveachit" factor may have been a bit too low and you have been wandering around all day with your head in the clouds...
This is known as an "LSA", boys and girls; and the fact that you are still alive is just plain LUCK!

It is understood that we should be much more aware of our surroundings while OCing.
I think this robbery/murder graphically illustrate the point.
None of us were present at the murder, so the best we can do is be Monday Morning Quarterbacks".
We can only hope we would have had better SA than the other guy.
Some of us have been places where the hair on the back of our necks actually stands up and tingles when one (or more) characters with baggy trousers walks into the same store in which we are shopping. I've seen groups of these Outstanding Citizens decide they had a need to be somewhere else in a hurry after they noticed the Kimber on my hip. Perhaps the sight of the pistol coupled with my SA made me a "hard target" and not worth messing with. The boys that murdered this man at the gas station obviously thought he was an easy target. Maybe he believed the pistol OCed on his hip was a Magic Talisman and would automatically scare away all Bad Things.
Tragically, he was wrong. Dead Wrong.

 

[peter nap]

How about an example of bad habit?

OC'ing open top holsters.
Hip Carry, especially open top holsters.
Worse yet, IWB holsters OC'ed. Might as well put a grab me sign on it.


I know, we don't know what kind of holster he had but if the kid grabbed his gun, I'll guarantee it was either open top or a thumb break and he had it riding on his butt.

Thinking that gun alone kept him from being helpless (His wife's words)

Last..what MSC 45ACP said.

Those are bad habits.

As this gets more public, there will be more.

I'm not getting too involved in this because soon, the Ninjas will start. We'll hear all about how they shift their eyes to the backs of their heads and before trouble starts their spider sense tingles.:uhoh:
Then they can drop down in the Hogan stance and breathe Dragon fire to make him release his grip on the gun.:lol:

 

[ComradeV]

Some Lessons Learned...

A gun is a tool. You have to know when to use it, how to use, etc.
The gun doesn't make you safer. Y virtue of its mere possession. It can create a perception of safety, but without readiness and awareness it's just a heavy collection of metal.

Officers get killed with their own gun sometimes. So it's perfectly reasonable to anticipate the need to be ready to keep your personal weapon secured from unauthorised access, even though the threat is much lower for you than the police.

While we're mentioning the death penalty. I think there is a moral justification for its application in circumstances of remorseless violent people who cannot be expected to willingly want to rehabilitate.

Pragmatically the reasons against its application in our society are quite numerous. The justice system itself has a serious credibility issue when it comes to executing the innocent. It seems that the death penalty cases themselves are too costly to justify it on a cost-benefit analysis versus life imprisonment. The data to suggest death penalties reduce crime is also lacking.

Given these factors it seems that lifetime imprisonment with a co-requisite of making the prisoners support their incarceration with their labour may be a better option.

 

[Grapeshot]

When the deed (murder) is caught on camera(s) and not dependent on just short of a reasonable doubt, then the death penalty at least prevents repeating - even inside the walls.

If that finite and specific test cannot be met, then their incarceration should be somewhat below the standards of third world countries: isolation (no social contact), minimum sustenance level, no TV or air conditioning, no physical recreation/exercise. You want to see sunshine and other people? - that's why you were provided an 24" x 5" window.

Until that standard becomes "usual", it will continue to be "cruel and unusual."

I realize that is not moderate thinking. Sorry, but I had a weak moment - will try to do better. :uhoh:

 

[Citizen]

SNIP I realize that is not moderate thinking. Sorry, but I had a weak moment - will try to do better. :uhoh:

Hold fast to the principles of liberty; forget about moderate, conservative, etc.

Government has proven beyond all doubt that it cannot be trusted with capital punishment. If it can kill a citizen with iron-clad evidence, it can and will wriggle itself the power to kill with less than iron-clad evidence.

 

[Repeater]

OC: Not a good idea?

I'm not sure where this is going Defender, but if it's going to turn into a "Everyone has to CC because OC is dangerous"....it's gonna get interesting real fast!

It seems at least some within VCDL thought OC could be dangerous and therefore, not a good idea.

 

[Grapeshot]

It seems at least some within VCDL thought OC could be dangerous and therefore, not a good idea.

The OC v CC debate will likely be around 10 years from now, which at that point will make the referenced article 15 years old.

My stance is that I do not care whether you OC, CC or noC. What is important to me is that you support the personal option for others to make that decision, that choice, for themselves.

No if someone asks me what my recommendation might be on the matter, the answer is "carry" and do so with all of the responsibility that involves.

 

[peter nap]

It seems at least some within VCDL thought OC could be dangerous and therefore, not a good idea.

That's entirely true Repeater. While I am a member and supporter of VCDL, I don't always agree with them or their agenda.

I explained to a new member years ago (I had paid his VCDL dues) when he asked if we blindly support the agenda.
I told him that just because someone owned a gun, they weren't automatically allies, brothers or even worth acknowledging. John Kerry owns guns, Bill Clinton owns guns...even Lori Haas owns guns.

Lots of city people are just now learning about guns and treat it like a game.

Why I just got a double stack, super plastic Glock Block Buster. Can't shoot worth $hit and I'm scared to go to the corner store without it...but I sure look good.:lol:

All owning a gun proves is they can afford a gun. It's the mindset that counts.

VCDL started life as a pro CHP, Urban Northern Va. group. Their main goal was to push Concealed Carry. As they grew, they modified their stance and seem to go in phases. I suspect this year they will take a middle of the road approach that I might have trouble disagreeing with. We'll see.

The bottom line with me is that Open Carry is legal and always has been. It's part of Virginia's Heritage. There is no cause or program, it's legal. As long as I can do so, I'll fight to keep it that way and as the sovereign, not as the poor relations to permit holders.