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The cop took my gun...

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
It would generally be best, I think, to "secure" the gun in a "closed container in the vehicle" before the cop gets out of his car, to avoid the whole scene.
While I strongly discourage carrying a gun that isn't secured in a holster on your body, or to a holster firmly affixed to a solid surface, if one insists on doing so, the way to do so is in a simple briefcase. "Secured" is a simple spin of the dial away.

Before there was legal car carry, or legal carry of any kind, in Texas, this was what we recommended. A gun that was secured in a locked container was not "on or about (your) person", thus not illegal. There's also no legal authority in any state to seize or force open a locked container, short of a warrant, and anyone can forget a combination under stress. ;)
 

swrichmond

New member
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
6
Location
RIchmond
Wisconsin, or any other state law, is not relevant in any manner at all when in Virginia.

Traffic stops, IIRC, constitute "Terry Stops."

Here is a link to the wiki description of the Terry stop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

The wiki article includes this:

A traffic stop is, for practical purposes, a Terry stop;[10] for the duration of a stop, driver and passengers are “seized” within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.[11] Under federal law, drivers[12] and passengers[13] may be ordered out of the vehicle without additional justification by the officer, although such practices might not be authorized under state law depending on the jurisdiction. Drivers[14] and passengers[15] may be searched for weapons upon reasonable suspicion they are armed and dangerous. If police reasonably suspect the driver or any of the occupants may be dangerous and that the vehicle may contain a weapon to which an occupant may gain access, police may perform a protective search of the passenger compartment.[16][17]

Without a warrant, probable cause, or the driver’s consent, police may not search the vehicle, but under the “plain view” doctrine may seize and use as evidence weapons or contraband that are visible from outside the vehicle.[18]


Here is the Virginia code I could find related to what to do when an officer of the revenue declares an emergency behind you by turning on his lights:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-829

I will quote:
"§ 46.2-829. Approach of law-enforcement or fire-fighting vehicles, rescue vehicles, or ambulances; violation as failure to yield right-of-way.

Upon the approach of any emergency vehicle as defined in § 46.2-920 giving audible signal by siren, exhaust whistle, or air horn designed to give automatically intermittent signals, and displaying a flashing, blinking, or alternating emergency light or lights as provided in §§ 46.2-1022 through 46.2-1024, the driver of every other vehicle shall, as quickly as traffic and other highway conditions permit, drive to the nearest edge of the roadway, clear of any intersection of highways, and stop and remain there, unless otherwise directed by a law-enforcement officer, until the emergency vehicle has passed. This provision shall not relieve the driver of any such vehicle to which the right-of-way is to be yielded of the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway, nor shall it protect the driver of any such vehicle from the consequences of an arbitrary exercise of such right-of-way.

Violation of this section shall constitute failure to yield the right-of-way; however, any violation of this section that involves overtaking or passing a moving emergency vehicle giving an audible signal and displaying activated warning lights as provided for in this section shall constitute reckless driving, punishable as provided in § 46.2-868."


Note the penalty. Now, in today's police state, can you get killed for failing to pull over and stop? Damned right you can.


There is also this in the code of Virginia: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-937

§ 46.2-937. Traffic infractions treated as misdemeanors for arrest purposes.

For purposes of arrest, traffic infractions shall be treated as misdemeanors. Except as otherwise provided by this title, the authority and duties of arresting officers shall be the same for traffic infractions as for misdemeanors.


And this:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-945

§ 46.2-945. Issuance of citation to motorist; party jurisdiction; police officer to report noncompliance with citation.

A. When issuing a citation for a traffic violation, a police officer shall issue the citation to a motorist who is a resident of or holds a driver's license issued by a party jurisdiction and shall not, subject to the exceptions noted in subsection C of this section, require such motorist to post collateral or bond to secure appearance for trial, but shall accept such motorist's written promise that he will comply with the terms of such citation; provided, however, the motorist shall have the right upon his request to post collateral or bond in a manner provided by law and, in such case, the provisions of this article shall not apply.

B. In the absence of the motorist's written promise, the officer shall proceed according to the provisions of § 46.2-940.

C. No motorist shall be entitled to receive a citation under the terms of subsection A of this section nor shall any police officer issue such citation under the same in the event the offense for which the citation is issued shall be one of the following: (i) an offense for which the issuance of a citation in lieu of a hearing or the posting of collateral or bond is prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth; or (ii) an offense, the conviction of or the forfeiture of collateral for which requires the revocation of the motorist's license.

D. Upon the failure of any motorist to comply with the terms of a traffic citation, the police officer or the appropriate official shall report this fact to the Department of Motor Vehicles. Such report shall clearly identify the motorist; describe the violation, specifying the section of the statute, code or ordinance violated; shall indicate the location of the offense, give description of vehicle involved, and show the registration or license number of the vehicle. Such report shall be signed by the police officer or appropriate official.


The relevant question is: how in the hell did we allow ourselves to be placed in a situation where one can be arrested, "lawfully" jailed and then hauled before a magistrate, for the mere act of traveling? The answer lies in the attitude displayed in the post about "you should be arrested for going twenty miles over the limit." The moment we embraced the notion of preventive law, we signed our own indentures. Anyone can be arrested for anything at any time. Should we next engage in a discussion about the Constitution-Free Zones that exist within 100 miles of any border of "The United States"? Very very sticky questions ensue when one reviews the situation that would arise during, say, a "sobriety checkpoint" or a "immigration checkpoint" set up on a public thoroughfare (if such a thing as a public thoroughfare exists anymore). It would seem to me that the Terry doctrine would not apply, as one who chose to stop at such a checkpoint would not be under arrest.

http://www.frtv.org/2010/06/16/cons...rder-patrol-security-search-and-seizure-laws/
 

CHILINVLN

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
95
Location
Fairfax, VA
Many of you seem to think I am some idiot that was unaware of the cop's intentions in reguards to my firearm. I knew fully what was going to happen once I turned over the firearm. Had I said NO leave the gun there, he would have claimed that I was under arrest therefore he had a right to remove the gun. I did not argee to some sort of arrangement with the officer. Hey, "you run my gun and Ill get a $30 ticket instead of a $200 ticket." The reason I said the cop was "cool" was because I was judging him based on my standards for cops (not very high). Bottomline you live and you learn. If I am in this situation again the gun will remain in the glovebox or center console. As for the gun being entered into some federal database....i bought it from a FFL dealer therefore its already in a database. I am the last person to "bend over" as some of you tastefully put it, for a cop. What many of you are doing is Monday quarterbacking. You may think you would have turned to the cop and said f-off after doing 25 in a 55. I could have said that but that would have created more problems for me. I have a clean driving record and still do after this incident mainly because I know how to handle the police. You people are crazy that say I gave up a right to forego a speeding ticket.

I'm sorry that your thread turned in the direction it did. Welcome to OC.org, where this is typical of someone posting their story with any hint of siding with law enforcement and having it torn apart. This is exactly why I very rarely post here.

I personally wouldn't have been going 20+ over nor would I have a handgun, unholstered, in the passenger seat. However, assuming I was pulled over doing 5mph over (likely) and my gun was holstered on the passenger seat, I would've also agreed to allow the officer to take it for his safety without issue. I would've complied in the same exact manner as you did - so I agree with your story, regardless of what the technicalities are of my rights. Point is, me NOT going to jail and dealing with a ridiculous case in court and lawsuit against the department is not worth me losing my clearance and job over. If someone else wants to fight that battle, go for it - but I will not.

However, I would recommend that you author a letter to the department and complain about how the situation was handled. I'm sure a few here may even have a nice template to share that you could use to start with. Even though the officer did cut you a break on the infraction, I would still call out that the situation was in violation of your rights.

Best of luck and stay safe. Semper Fi.
 
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cyras21

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
152
Location
Stepehens City, VA
When you were pulled, you were under arrest and he could secure the gun if he wanted.
Yeah, it sucks!

I'm sure he did run the serial number. Sell the gun and buy a private sale replacement.

I have a lockable holster so I can give him the whole thing, but he can't see the serial number and yes, he would have a fit and yes, that would pretty much guarantee a ticket.

Where was this?

Which brand/model holster?
 

Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
I agree with love4guns. the cop could have made a crap ton of more problems. the least of which would be a 2 or 300 dollar ticket. i would keep the gun on my hip or in a secured glovebox. I could be wrong but i dont think you were under arrest but rather being detained. In which case the cop should have the right to protect himself for the prospect of that gun being used against him. But these are just my opinions and at the end of the day i dont know crap
 
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peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
. But these are just my opinions and at the end of the day i dont know $h#t

When I joined this site Tanner, I made a post about something or the other and immediately The SUPER MODERATOR and a host of little toadies jumped on me telling me the RULE was to NEVER do whatever it was I did.

That's when I realized that there are a hell of a lot of people that don't have a clue.

The rule is, there are no rules, only guidelines that need to be weighed by each individual in every situation...so I'd say at the end of the day you know more than you think.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
..... I could be wrong but i dont think you were under arrest but rather being detained. In which case the cop should have the right to protect himself for the prospect of that gun being used against him. But these are just my opinions and at the end of the day i dont know crap

Strange how folks start off thinking there is a difference between being arrested and being detained. In either case one is not free to go until/unless the LEO says one may now leave. SCOTUS says that's all they need to consider you arrested.

I know folks talk about being detained so that the LEO has time to investigate and decide whether to officially charge one with a crime. But seriously, when they decide not to charge you what they are doing is unarresting you.

As for a LEO being able to "protect himself for the prospect of that gun being used against him" - that's been part of case law for I can't remember how long - when was Terry handed down? Add to that case all the others about how far they can search and who they can search during a traffic stop or in a group that included the person they initially wanted to arrest and you begin to see the economy of paying attorneys to remember/look up and sort through this stuff instead of doing it yourself.

Fortunately these are not "rights to protect themselves" that LEOs have, but grants of privilege to intrude into the 4th Amendment prohibition against unwarranted search and seizure.

stay safe.
 

Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
So its clear that there is no difference between being arrested or detained. I was looking at it from the perspective of would this end up on someones arrest record. I dont know if it would. If your doing 20+ mph over the limit and a cop (after pulling you over) sees a gun in the seat. I think key word THINK that the cop acted within reason by wanting the gun out of reach. If I was the cop all the info I would have to go off of is this guy is way over the speed limit and has a gun in is passenger seat. Who is he about to go shoot. As for him wanting to put the gun in the trunk yea well you fell for that one and he probably was pushing the limit of what he was legally allowed to do there. These are just my opinions that are based off a very limited understanding of law. Its why I came to join a site like this. To learn from people who do know. That being said it think most law is formed with some sort or reasonable goal which is why it is open to opinion. Whos job is it to say what is reasonable or not. Well alot is base in logic but personal experience and a bias opinion is what causes the conflict. If I was the cop I probably would have done the same thing minus the trunk trick. When it comes to protecting myself I dont give a damn about anyone elses rights. Example: some one pulls a weapon on me I no longer care about their right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness.
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
If I was the cop all the info I would have to go off of is this guy is way over the speed limit and has a gun in is passenger seat. Who is he about to go shoot.

So, everyone in possession of a gun is about to go shoot someone? Are you a troll, or just a fail?

If I was the cop I probably would have done the same thing minus the trunk trick. When it comes to protecting myself I dont give a damn about anyone elses rights.

Clearly, you're not fit to be a peace officer. There is no draft for police in this country. If one finds himself unable to perform his duties while respecting the constitutionally-guaranteed rights of the citizenry, without being too scared, he should seek more suitable employment, preferably in the productive sector.

Example: some one pulls a weapon on me I no longer care about their right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness.

Sigh...yes, because that's the same as a gun sitting on the passenger seat.

No offense, but your post comes off as idiotic at best. Think harder, try harder.
 
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Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
ManInBlack you make me giggle. You seem to be the only one on this site incapable of having any kind of debate without resorting to insults. And yes it would be resonable to have reservations about a gun just sitting on the seat like that. As to my remark about him going to shoot someone was a bit of sarcasim mixed with a real world probability. After all people do shoot other people. And who said anything about being a peace officer? The whole idea of OC can be explained by a quote I saw on this site. " when the difference between life and death is a fraction of a second the police are just a few minutes away" Its called changing the subject. I wasent comparing my right to protect myself or anyones right to protect themself to this guy having a gun on his passenger seat. Im sure you have much more pontification for us so please. Do share your informed opinion.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
So its clear that there is no difference between being arrested or detained. I was looking at it from the perspective of would this end up on someones arrest record. I dont know if it would.
If I am importuned by a cop I want a record of it, consensual or non-consensual.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/importune
To bother, trouble, irritate. To harass with persistent requests. To approach to offer one's services as a prostitute, or otherwise make improper proposals.

MIB; Another one bites the dust.
 
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Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
ARREST RECORD! as in you were arrested taken to jail, put in handcuffs, whatever. would every single encounter with a officer show up on someones arrest record? That is a honest question seeking a honest answer. Yea i would want a record of the police report weather I was "arrested" or not and am aware that they do keep record of encounters with people reguardless of it resulting in a arrest or incarseration if that word better explains my question. And no one was being importuned if the guy was going 20+ over the limit. He was breaking the law. Or am i wrong about that also?
 
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Motofixxer

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Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
DETAIN: To retain as the possession of personalty. First Nat. Bank v. Yocom, 96 Or. 438, 189 P. 220, 221. To arrest, to check, to delay, to hinder, to hold, or keep in custody, to retard, to re strain from proceeding, to stay, to stop. People v. Smith, 17 Cal.App.2d 468, 62 P.2d 436, 438. (Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 535)

ARREST: To deprive a person of his liberty by legal authority. Taking, under real or assumed authority, custody of another for the purpose of holding or detaining him to answer a criminal charge or civil demand. Ex parte Sherwood, 29 Tex.App. 334, 15 S.W. 812. Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest." Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213. It is a restraints however slight, on another's liberty to come and go. Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112. It is the taking, seizing or detaining the person of another, touching or putting hands upon him in the execution of process, or any act indicating an intention to arrest. U. S. v. Benner, Bald. 234, 239, Fed.Cas.No.14,568; State v. District Court of Eighth Judicial Dist. in and for Cascade County, 70 Mont. 378, 225 P. 1000, 1001; Hoppes v. State, 105 P.2d 433, 439, 70 Okl.Cr. 179.(Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 140)







RAS(Reasonable Articulated Suspicion, Detentions and Arrests)

Detentions and Arrests, info and definitions by cowboyridn

Detention descriptions, consensual and when to walk away. An informational read

3 Different levels of Police/Citizen encounters Explained

4th and 5th Amendment Resources by user Citizen

This section authorizes officers to demand identification only when a person is suspected of committing a crime, but does not govern the lawfulness of requests for identification in other circumstances. State v. Griffith, 2000 WI 72, 236 Wis. 2d 48, 613 N.W.2d 72, 98-0931.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1226046509410140751&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
52 F.3d 194 UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Coye Denise GREEN, Defendant-Appellant. No. 94-1675. United States Court of App

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
"Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."


In evaluating the validity of investigatory stops, we must consider the "totality of the circumstances--the whole picture." United States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 8, 109 S.Ct. 1581, 1585, 104 L.Ed.2d 1 (1989) (quoting United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417, 101 S.Ct. 690, 695, 66 L.Ed.2d 621 (1981)). Reasonable suspicion must derive from more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch.' " Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 27, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1883, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). Moreover, "[c]onduct typical of a broad category of innocent people provides a weak basis for suspicion." United States v. Weaver, 966 F.2d 391, 394 (8th Cir.) (quoting United States v. Crawford, 891 F.2d 680, 681 (8th Cir.1989)), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 113 S.Ct. 829, 121 L.Ed.2d 699 (1992).

A number of the factors relied upon by Carrill can be characterized as "conduct typical of a broad category of innocent people." Weaver, 966 F.2d at 394. We reject the notion that Green's travelling alone, carrying a small bag, wearing new and baggy clothes, and failing to make eye contact with Carrill, are in any way indicative of criminal activity. Thus, these factors cannot play a role in assessing the validity of the investigatory stop.

Under Florida v. J.L., an anonymous tip giving rise to reasonable suspicion must bear indicia of reliability. That the tipster's anonymity is placed at risk indicates that the informant is genuinely concerned and not a fallacious prankster. Corroborated aspects of the tip also lend credibility; the corroborated actions of the suspect need be inherently criminal in and of themselves., 2001 WI 21, 241 Wis. 2d 631, 623 N.W.2d 106, 96-1821. State v. Williams

An anonymous tip is not RAS

ID'ing yourself discussion
 
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Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
To Sheriff. Thank you for a direct question that gives me a chance to explain something rather than assume.
I would like to start out by stating the obvious. There is what cops can do and then there is what cops actually do. Here is what I know to be true. Speeding at 20+ mph in Virginia is a major traffic violation and worth a 6 point penalty on your license. This is the same as a DUI and can key word "can" result in similar corrective acction such as impounding your car, manditory court appearance, fine up to 2500 dollars, and although unlikely jail time up to a year. This info is on the DMV website if you would like to verify.

http://www.dmv.org/va-virginia/point-system.php#Common-Offenses-and-Points


after all was said and done he got away with a 30 dollar ticket. thats a win in my book.
 
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