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Bodo's Bagels Charlottesville apparently Anti-Gun
- Thread starter Jay
- Start date
Sheriff
Regular Member
Why don't we just let him check his monthly records, find out exactly what month he spent the
most money at Bodo's in, and then claim that's when he first started taking his family to Bodo's?
After all, we wanna keep this little bet honest, don't we? :lol:
Sheriff
Regular Member
Good logic. But the question remains.... should people stample Bodo's constitutional right to forbid firearms
in his place of business? Isn't Bodo's right just as important as that of a gun owner?
brlong23
Regular Member
Yes, I believe it is equally protected. However, Bodo's has decided to not have a policy restricting firearms nor display any signage stating their preference for individuals to conceal or go without their firearms. Because of this, I personally believe that they have failed to hold up their end of the bargain and their indifference is negligible. Should the business actually have a formal policy based on the owners preference, then I believe that's acceptable. To say, "Hey, do whatever you want because it's legal...until someone says something. Then I'm going to have to ask you to leave because my other customers and employees are scared." That seems to me like laziness on the part of ownership.
roscoe13
Campaign Veteran
Can't fault him for his policy/rules or even the lack of anything definitive.
His house, his table, his deck of cards and he is the one dealing - he wants you to sit down and leave your money. You still have choices - let your level of dedication be your guide.
Bodo
Regular Member
Thanks again, Jay, for again putting together a very reasonable set of the concerns arising from our exchange—I'll do my best to dispel any confusion that's still hanging in the air as a result of my initial conversation with you. I'm going to try, while I respond to you, to locate Bodo's with regard to some of the best points raised by others here.
1. I should not have indicated, in my momentary conversation with you in the store, that guns are not allowed at Bodo's, which is a lot of what I tried to get across in my response:
“The answer to your immediate question, and the locus of most of my unhappiness with what I said to you Saturday, is that we do not have any policy at Bodo's regarding the carrying--open or closed--of handguns by our customers. “
I went on to say that I _should have_ “reset my own response” to the distress of my staff and my patrons. What I meant is that I should, if asked about your decision to open carry in the store by my staff or my customers, have responded again as I had initially in the case I described—by explaining “that it [is] legal to open carry in Virginia,” and that you had never given us any cause for concern. That isn't what I did, but I think now, as I did almost immediately, that it's what I should have done.
2. There is no policy for or against open carry at Bodo's—that's exactly right.
That is not because we have neglected to create one, but because we don't believe a policy in either direction is right for us (our constitutional right, as many have been careful to acknowledge here).
I don't know that this is the same, exactly, as the “neutral” policy Grapeshot has suggested—a stance he believes would be more than adequate. I do think it is fair to say that such a policy “leaves the threat of censure fully in place,” but only to the extent that such a possibility always exists, and not ever simply because of the decision to open carry. It does not follow from the lack of a positive stance that I would ask an open carrier to leave the store, nor did I say anything in my email or in my post to indicate that open carrying would not be allowed or that I would ask an open carrier to leave because of the distress of my staff or my patrons, though I certainly see how my emphasis on that distress and the absence of “a clear rule of conduct” might conjure Damocles and the sword he begged to have removed. That emphasis is there because I think it is worth remembering that the people who you interact with when you open carry have no assurance that the person they see carrying is law-abiding, careful, honest, or responsible. The carrier may or may not be all of those things, and his or her gun, however it is carried, may or may not be legal, my presumption that each of you carry legally and responsibly notwithstanding. There are all kinds of folks out there, and they can't be conveniently segregated into good guys and bad guys by whether or how they carry a weapon. If asked about such a customer, my first response would be the one I describe above (1), assuming that the customer in question had, like Jay, “given us no cause for concern,” but what this misses is what the unknowability of the carrier inflicts on others, and that is what I was at pains to point out.
While I don't think that this position is cowardly or negligent, I do certainly respect the right of others to disagree and to conduct themselves accordingly. I have, in a decade and a half, asked only two customers who were not publicly inebriated to leave the store, and both were being loudly and irrationally abusive. Neither of them were behaving responsibly, nor, however, was either of them behaving illegally. The lines of social conduct just aren't that absolute. I have—much more often—prohibited people from promoting anything—a product, a service, an agenda—in front of or inside the store. That's free speech, but the exercise of all rights is limited by, among many other things, “courtesy,” which Grapeshot offers as a necessary standard of conduct. Again, I agree, but courtesy has to cover a whole lot of indeterminate ground here, including the varying nature and purpose of the venue. I did not, in the case that started this discussion, ask you to leave, Jay, and I had no knowledge of whether you planned to dine in or take your food to go. That doesn't make a difference to the inadequacy of my interaction with you, but it is nonetheless the case. For the inadequacy, I apologize again.
3. I do feel it would be better for people to closed carry than to open carry in the store, but I do not and will not require that you do so, if you carry. I do not share the view, repeatedly expressed in this forum, that criminals do not and will not open carry or that a weapon carried openly and properly holstered is an assurance of legal or moral rectitude, nor do I believe that such a weapon indicates anything negative about the person carrying. The gun is a gun. The person is a person. I think, given the negative views expressed about LE and private security (though they open carry), that the forum agrees, broadly speaking, with this position, in spite of frequent reference to the contrary idea. Cashiers see a gun, and that is not ignorant or discriminatory of them: there is a gun there to see and it can be fired. That they do not have any knowledge of the motives or conduct of the carrier is exactly the point.
I made the request that you closed carry because of my concern for the comfort and safety of my staff and my patrons (even the legal gun of a law-abiding citizen may, for example, be appropriated and used illicitly without the consent of the carrier), not as a matter of policy. I did not require anyone to closed carry. I do not disallow the carrying, open or closed, of legal guns in Bodo's. I'm sorry if I muddied the waters by offering more than a flat statement of policy, but I think that I was right to believe that you would consider what I thought and why I thought it fairly and reasonably. I have appreciated and admired that fairmindedness in everything you've written, especially this:
If I were an owner manager of a store and someone approached me and was uneasy about an open carrier. I personally would acknowledge there concern, express that I have no fear with there method of carry, and they are not breaking the law. (I know that someone that is hell bent on doing harm is not going to open carry (element of surprise). That is me though I realize that not everyone feels the same way that I do, but the great thing is we live in the land of free sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.
Please also do not take mine or anyones post as a personal attack on you we all just strongly believe in protecting a right that we have, and actively support businesses that do not hinder that right. We are your neighbors, doctors, lawyers, EMT;s, IT professional, mechanic, police officer, and service men & women.
I don't agree that anyone with criminal intent would necessarily conceal, but I agree strongly with the rest, and I appreciate very much the generosity of spirit behind it. Thanks again, Jay. I hope that we can, at the very least, agree to disagree.
1. I should not have indicated, in my momentary conversation with you in the store, that guns are not allowed at Bodo's, which is a lot of what I tried to get across in my response:
“The answer to your immediate question, and the locus of most of my unhappiness with what I said to you Saturday, is that we do not have any policy at Bodo's regarding the carrying--open or closed--of handguns by our customers. “
I went on to say that I _should have_ “reset my own response” to the distress of my staff and my patrons. What I meant is that I should, if asked about your decision to open carry in the store by my staff or my customers, have responded again as I had initially in the case I described—by explaining “that it [is] legal to open carry in Virginia,” and that you had never given us any cause for concern. That isn't what I did, but I think now, as I did almost immediately, that it's what I should have done.
2. There is no policy for or against open carry at Bodo's—that's exactly right.
That is not because we have neglected to create one, but because we don't believe a policy in either direction is right for us (our constitutional right, as many have been careful to acknowledge here).
I don't know that this is the same, exactly, as the “neutral” policy Grapeshot has suggested—a stance he believes would be more than adequate. I do think it is fair to say that such a policy “leaves the threat of censure fully in place,” but only to the extent that such a possibility always exists, and not ever simply because of the decision to open carry. It does not follow from the lack of a positive stance that I would ask an open carrier to leave the store, nor did I say anything in my email or in my post to indicate that open carrying would not be allowed or that I would ask an open carrier to leave because of the distress of my staff or my patrons, though I certainly see how my emphasis on that distress and the absence of “a clear rule of conduct” might conjure Damocles and the sword he begged to have removed. That emphasis is there because I think it is worth remembering that the people who you interact with when you open carry have no assurance that the person they see carrying is law-abiding, careful, honest, or responsible. The carrier may or may not be all of those things, and his or her gun, however it is carried, may or may not be legal, my presumption that each of you carry legally and responsibly notwithstanding. There are all kinds of folks out there, and they can't be conveniently segregated into good guys and bad guys by whether or how they carry a weapon. If asked about such a customer, my first response would be the one I describe above (1), assuming that the customer in question had, like Jay, “given us no cause for concern,” but what this misses is what the unknowability of the carrier inflicts on others, and that is what I was at pains to point out.
While I don't think that this position is cowardly or negligent, I do certainly respect the right of others to disagree and to conduct themselves accordingly. I have, in a decade and a half, asked only two customers who were not publicly inebriated to leave the store, and both were being loudly and irrationally abusive. Neither of them were behaving responsibly, nor, however, was either of them behaving illegally. The lines of social conduct just aren't that absolute. I have—much more often—prohibited people from promoting anything—a product, a service, an agenda—in front of or inside the store. That's free speech, but the exercise of all rights is limited by, among many other things, “courtesy,” which Grapeshot offers as a necessary standard of conduct. Again, I agree, but courtesy has to cover a whole lot of indeterminate ground here, including the varying nature and purpose of the venue. I did not, in the case that started this discussion, ask you to leave, Jay, and I had no knowledge of whether you planned to dine in or take your food to go. That doesn't make a difference to the inadequacy of my interaction with you, but it is nonetheless the case. For the inadequacy, I apologize again.
3. I do feel it would be better for people to closed carry than to open carry in the store, but I do not and will not require that you do so, if you carry. I do not share the view, repeatedly expressed in this forum, that criminals do not and will not open carry or that a weapon carried openly and properly holstered is an assurance of legal or moral rectitude, nor do I believe that such a weapon indicates anything negative about the person carrying. The gun is a gun. The person is a person. I think, given the negative views expressed about LE and private security (though they open carry), that the forum agrees, broadly speaking, with this position, in spite of frequent reference to the contrary idea. Cashiers see a gun, and that is not ignorant or discriminatory of them: there is a gun there to see and it can be fired. That they do not have any knowledge of the motives or conduct of the carrier is exactly the point.
I made the request that you closed carry because of my concern for the comfort and safety of my staff and my patrons (even the legal gun of a law-abiding citizen may, for example, be appropriated and used illicitly without the consent of the carrier), not as a matter of policy. I did not require anyone to closed carry. I do not disallow the carrying, open or closed, of legal guns in Bodo's. I'm sorry if I muddied the waters by offering more than a flat statement of policy, but I think that I was right to believe that you would consider what I thought and why I thought it fairly and reasonably. I have appreciated and admired that fairmindedness in everything you've written, especially this:
If I were an owner manager of a store and someone approached me and was uneasy about an open carrier. I personally would acknowledge there concern, express that I have no fear with there method of carry, and they are not breaking the law. (I know that someone that is hell bent on doing harm is not going to open carry (element of surprise). That is me though I realize that not everyone feels the same way that I do, but the great thing is we live in the land of free sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.
Please also do not take mine or anyones post as a personal attack on you we all just strongly believe in protecting a right that we have, and actively support businesses that do not hinder that right. We are your neighbors, doctors, lawyers, EMT;s, IT professional, mechanic, police officer, and service men & women.
I don't agree that anyone with criminal intent would necessarily conceal, but I agree strongly with the rest, and I appreciate very much the generosity of spirit behind it. Thanks again, Jay. I hope that we can, at the very least, agree to disagree.
Sheriff
Regular Member
I think this is enough to put the issue to rest. Based upon my personal observation and experience as a former sheriff's deputy for almost 30 years, and as a semi-retired civilian for the past 15 years, you're just not going to have to worry about too many people entering your business with a gun strapped on their side anyway. People in the Charlottesville and Albemarle area simply don't do it much. You might have an occasional person doing so because it is legal in Virginia and they enjoy their right to self defense, and you might have a few plain clothes law enforcement officers doing it as well. 25 years ago even plain clothes law enforcement officers covered their firearms, but they have moved away from this practice pretty much nowadays.
Furthermore, based upon my personal observation and experience, any person who enters your business with a gun strapped on is going to be seen by the majority of your patrons as a "law enforcement officer" in this area. I was in Outback one evening having dinner when a couple of plain clothes detectives came in. My family asked me and had assumed they were cops immediately. I told them yes of course.
No disrespect intended, but your family seems to be behind the learning curve considering that they have someone in their midst with 45 years experience instructing them
Bottom line is whether LEO or non-LEO should matter not.
Sheriff
Regular Member
No disrespect intended, but your family seems to be behind the learning curve considering that they have someone in their midst with 45 years experience instructing them
Yeah, they're retarded.
It shouldn't, but it does. People around here would much rather see a cop with a gun than a stranger.
Wolf_shadow
Activist Member
Seems you want to promote this belief. Sorry but it has been my experience that you speak for a few, not many.
Also what does the fact that you were a deputy sheriff for almost 30 years prove other then you think this makes you better then us lowly civilians.
papa bear
Regular Member
sorry not trying to insult you, but a sheriff deputy ,or any other LEO is civilian
BODO, i hope you will answer this for me. but what is your concern? are you afraid that an open carrier is going to get mad and shoot up the place? you should realize that a CCer, legal or not, could do that
what exactly is the safety concern? are you afraid that a properly holstered firearm with all the safety devises is going to go off , for no reason?
this is to the rest of the forum. if one is for the carry of a firearm and you advocate it for any law abiding citizen, then you will not go to a business that does not honor the 2ndA. doing this is what a hypocrite does
Wolf_shadow
Activist Member
Sheriff
Regular Member
You're not insulting me. Even the ones who are trying to insult me have failed if you look above. :lol:
Let's look at it this way since we're discussing Bodo's...... if a civilian walks into Bodo's, the manager has the right to ask him/her to leave or place their firearm in their car. If a law enforcement officer walks into Bodo's, either on business or for lunch, the manager is NOT going to ask them to remove the weapon or remove themselves. That's just the way it is, folks. Does this make the law enforcement officer a privilege character? Does it make him/her more or better than a civilian? If we really wanna do the law enforcement officer vs civilian debate, the boys fighting and dying over in Afghanistan and other countries, are they civilians. Would we dare call them civilians as their bodies are unloaded from the planes for burial back in the USA?
Sheriff
Regular Member
I said people "around here", where I live. Having been a deputy sheriff for so long, I know the people in my community, most on a first name basis. I know the way most of them think. I don't live in an area where you have hundreds of thousands of people in each city and county like in Northern Virginia and don't know 3% of them.
It does happen though AND it is perfectly legal.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/04/police-officer-asked-leave-portland-coffee-shop/
Sheriff
Regular Member
"....characterized the incident as a 'fluke', but noted the city's ongoing tension between the police and some members of the community."
Doesn't appear to have anything to do with the cop's big gun. :lol:
Sheriff
Regular Member
Not to worry - there is no written test.
Seems there was no reading test either.