The Hiroshima Myth

[Deanimator]

I'm not sure when FDR's man crush on Time's Man of the Year, Adolf Hitler, ended. I know FDR loved "Uncle Joe" Stalin. They were great buds and Stalin was a bigger murderer than Hitler.

At least you admit your ignorance without making such an imbecilic statement.

But seriously, if we were transported back to that time, if you wanted to go over and fight against Adolf, that's your right. Just don't do it in my name or steal my money at gunpoint to pay for your excursion. Certainly don't tell me I can't have new tires, butter, and have to be taxed at 80% or 100% if I make over a certain amount (Tax rates during WW2). That would be, um, communist, or fascist.....oh, wait.

Given that Hitler declared war on the United States, it's the mootest of moot points.

 

[Deanimator]

Deanimator has made it clear he is incapable of contributing anything to this discussion other than calling his opponents "colossally stupid". Despite that, his "contributions" have come to dominate this thread, thanks to his O'Reilly-esque bluster.

I said that his statement was colossally stupid, which indeed it was. I'd have called him a liar, but it's entirely possible that he's so shamefully ignorant (as are you) that he actually believed what he said.

My days of pandering to the ostentatiously ignorant are LONG over.

Get used to it.

 

[carolina guy]

Yeah, let's not let the depression argument derail the discussion. Not only did the war not end the depression, such would be a lousy reason to go to war.


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+2

 

[JamesCanby]

Your high horse would be much more impressive if it weren't for that pesky "draft" word at the end of it.

WWII may be the exception, but generally a draft doesn't bolster the case of "popular support".

Just sayin'.

I agree with you in general, but WWII -- the scenario this thread is discussing -- *is* exceptional. Men in every state lined up on December 8th to volunteer for service and didn't wait for the draft. Patriotism was the overwhelming emotion, and those that attempted to evade the draft were castigated and reviled.

Push forward in time to the Viet Nam conflict, and we had a far different scenario. We were there as a matter of treaty responsibilities with a country that no one had ever heard of, and those who were being drafted had grown up in the relative ease of the 50s and 60s, living a lifestyle that they were not willing to give up. It was de rigueur to resist the draft.

That was not necessarily a bad thing. That situation led to the all-volunteer military and the need for the civilian authority to absolutely justify the use of military expeditionary force -- and yet we still find ourselves involved in dubious situations.

 

[carolina guy]

Deanimator has made it clear he is incapable of contributing anything to this discussion other than calling his opponents "colossally stupid". Despite that, his "contributions" have come to dominate this thread, thanks to his O'Reilly-esque bluster.

He may be under the impression that this is an effective way of debating, or he may be under the impression that we're so obviously wrong it justifies such. It's clear in any other context that the person who resorts to ad hominem attacks (rather than concrete arguments) is upset at their inability to articulate a defense to their position.

For that reason, this thread has become "colossally stupid" and I'll be "Moving on..."

I thought you were going to put Eye's profile pic after saying that...or was that someone else?

 

[marshaul]

I agree with you in general, but WWII -- the scenario this thread is discussing -- *is* exceptional. Men in every state lined up on December 8th to volunteer for service and didn't wait for the draft. Patriotism was the overwhelming emotion, and those that attempted to evade the draft were castigated and reviled.

True enough. I used "may" in the rhetorical sense.

Push forward in time to the Viet Nam conflict, and we had a far different scenario. We were there as a matter of treaty responsibilities with a country that no one had ever heard of, and those who were being drafted had grown up in the relative ease of the 50s and 60s, living a lifestyle that they were not willing to give up. It was de rigueur to resist the draft.

That was not necessarily a bad thing. That situation led to the all-volunteer military and the need for the civilian authority to absolutely justify the use of military expeditionary force -- and yet we still find ourselves involved in dubious situations.

Well, it seems you have a pretty clear understanding of what I was getting at. I agree with you here.

 

[OC for ME]

I do not lose sleep at night because we nuked Japan. I hope other nations remember that we have used nukes.

 

[77zach]

we...we

Nope, not we, them. "Our" illustrious Congress, Obama and his cronies, they control the nuclear weapons.

 

[davidmcbeth]

I do not lose sleep at night because we nuked Japan. I hope other nations remember that we have used nukes.

ever hear the story of the Japanese salesman ... first was at Hiroshima then got the heck out and went to Nagasaki (just in time) ... he lived through both.

 

[OC for ME]

Nope, not we, them. "Our" illustrious Congress, Obama and his cronies, they control the nuclear weapons.

Technically, the President controls the nukes, with a descending chain of command for authorization to employ the systems.

 

[marshaul]

Technically, the President controls the nukes, with a descending chain of command for authorization to employ the systems.

We haven't had a President I would call "mine" since Coolidge.

 

[davidmcbeth]

A conversation several years back:

Truman: Should we drop the bomb to force unconditional surrender?

Generals: We don't think that its necessary sir.

Truman: Would it hurt the efforts to get an unconditional surrender?

Generals: No sir.

Truman: Well, there you go .... bombs away !

 

[JamesCanby]

A conversation several years back:

Truman: Should we drop the bomb to force unconditional surrender?

Generals: We don't think that its necessary sir.

Truman: Would it hurt the efforts to get an unconditional surrender?

Generals: No sir.

Truman: Well, there you go .... bombs away !

I had no idea that you were that old nor did I realize that you were privy to the President's private conversations.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

A statement so colossally stupid that you had to have heard it first from Joe Biden.

Oh yeah, Hitler would have really been in a bind if FDR hadn't sent him all of that Lend Lease equipment. Those four stack destroyers were a real godsend to the Kriegsmarine, and I don't know WHAT the Luftwaffe would have done without those P-36s, P-39s, P-40s, Baltimores, and Marylands

The true measure of the stupdity of what you've said is proved by the fact that even Pat Buchanan isn't stupid enough to believe it.

Ok maybe not of Hitler himself but of Hitler's fascism.

In a letter to Hitler from FDR....."should you agree to a solution in this peaceful manner I am convinced that hundreds of millions throughout the world would recognize your action as an outstanding historic service to all humanity.

It was something he was striving for here too.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Post hoc fallacy implies a lack of causation, just one event following another. WWII decidedly destroyed three fascist powers that would have threatened the US (and IMO, won a war we entered to late). That is absolute causation. WWII caused the end of these three powers and made impossible their attacking us any more than one of them had already done--prematurely, it seems.

Moving on. You can continue to try to falsely attribute logical fallacies where they clearly do not apply. Unless you have a different vein to mine, this one has played out.


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No post hoc fallacy is your argument you just made, basically that fascist state would have become strong enough to attack us, that is a pure assumption on your part.

Still wondering why you are using this tactic of not quoting who you are talking to, seems to be a way of evasion.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Prolonged it, the depression ended in the mid-40's, WW2 ended in 1945....

Mid '40 is around 1945? So your contradiction is?

 

[marshaul]

Fact: it's impossible to end a depression, or to improve an economy, by increasing redistribution of wealth to nonproductive sectors.

Fact: while defense spending may (or may not) be necessary, to whatever extent it goes beyond that demanded by normal market conditions it is definitionally non-value-adding and therefore effectively nonproductive.

Therefore, it is impossible for WWII to have ended the depression. QED.

Remember, correlation does not imply causation.

If you want to look at it another way, consider how many nations have been driven to bankruptcy by their wars. In fact, the only way to profit from war at all is to plunder from your defeated foes.

 

[carolina guy]

Fact: it's impossible to end a depression, or to improve an economy, by increasing redistribution of wealth to nonproductive sectors.

Fact: while defense spending may (or may not) be necessary, to whatever extent it goes beyond that demanded by normal market conditions it is definitionally non-value-adding and therefore effectively nonproductive.

Therefore, it is impossible for WWII to have ended the depression. QED.

Remember, correlation does not imply causation.

If you want to look at it another way, consider how many nations have been driven to bankruptcy by their wars. In fact, the only way to profit from war at all is to plunder from your defeated foes.

The current method to "...end a depression, or to improve an economy..." is to simply redefine the parameters that are used to describe the economy. Well...that and increased spending in non-productive sectors of the economy. We all know that the "spoils" of war do not hit the general accounts in DC.

 

[OneForAll]

Mid '40 is around 1945? So your contradiction is?

WW2 ended May 8, 1945, and there is no exact date in the mid 40's the depression ended. Like I said in a previous post, when my grandfather returned home from Europe he was approved for a house loan and built his own house. Would that of happened before the war? No, so our economy must have been a lot better meaning the depression was over.

 

[marshaul]

WW2 ended May 8, 1945, and there is no exact date in the mid 40's the depression ended. Like I said in a previous post, when my grandfather returned home from Europe he was approved for a house loan and built his own house. Would that of happened before the war? No, so our economy must have been a lot better meaning the depression was over.

Correlation does not imply causation.