Open carry and loss prevention

[skidmark]

Damn you, peter nap! I was going to get a free dinner in VB out of this before you came along. Now he may not take up my offer. Damn you!

stay safe.

 

[Mongoose72]

The store where the worst occurred I have no intention of exposing my family to again. $10,000 per year at Wal-Mart for someone with a family isn't a lot of money. I basically buy almost all of our food and necessities there. Profiling women with strollers etc is fairly common and I can dig up some links if you are really that interested.As to my credibility; I think that I have already met Skidmark (guy with hip problems) and Grapeshot (if hes the guy with hearing aids and flannel) a few months ago at an OC get together. I have been to several VB OC get togethers as well back when Justine was doing them.

 

[F350]

We had recently moved to Grand Junction, CO (25 miles from Utah) and the wife drug me Target, for the sake of our marriage I don't shop with her, I was OCing. I was looking at golf type shirts (I will not wear a shirt without a pocket) and noticed a guy who seemed to be following me. He was wearing a black cowboy hat, plaid shirt with leather vest, blue jeans and cowboy boots, I had yet to see anyone here actually dress like that so he stood out. I didn't find what I wanted and went to the office section, there was cowboy, went to shoes to look at boots, there was cowboy, so I headed back to men's wear and could see him following.

As I passed through women's wear I passed behind a tall display, so I ducked down below the clothing racks and circled around behind him, as I approached him from behind he was obviously looking for someone. I walked up and taped him on the shoulder, he jumped like he had been goosed. When he turned around I said "If your looking for me I'm headed to sporting goods, and by the way, you stick out like a sore thumb" he got pissed and stormed off.

 

[Grapeshot]

We had recently moved to Grand Junction, CO (25 miles from Utah) and the wife drug me Target, for the sake of our marriage I don't shop with her, I was OCing. I was looking at golf type shirts (I will not wear a shirt without a pocket) and noticed a guy who seemed to be following me. He was wearing a black cowboy hat, plaid shirt with leather vest, blue jeans and cowboy boots, I had yet to see anyone here actually dress like that so he stood out. I didn't find what I wanted and went to the office section, there was cowboy, went to shoes to look at boots, there was cowboy, so I headed back to men's wear and could see him following.

As I passed through women's wear I passed behind a tall display, so I ducked down below the clothing racks and circled around behind him, as I approached him from behind he was obviously looking for someone. I walked up and taped him on the shoulder, he jumped like he had been goosed. When he turned around I said "If your looking for me I'm headed to sporting goods, and by the way, you stick out like a sore thumb" he got pissed and stormed off.

That is funny - can actually visualize that happening :lol:

 

[skidmark]

The store where the worst occurred I have no intention of exposing my family to again. $10,000 per year at Wal-Mart for someone with a family isn't a lot of money. I basically buy almost all of our food and necessities there. Profiling women with strollers etc is fairly common and I can dig up some links if you are really that interested.As to my credibility; I think that I have already met Skidmark (guy with hip problems) and Grapeshot (if hes the guy with hearing aids and flannel) a few months ago at an OC get together. I have been to several VB OC get togethers as well back when Justine was doing them.

Meeting me does nothing to establish the credibility of your claims.*

You are correct - $10K/year is not an outlandish figure. It's only $192.31 per week. But I needed a calculator to figure that out - I'm betting the manager will need to do that also.

What "worst" are you referring to? A couple of gorillas hulking around near you? If you have met me you should know that I laugh that sort of stuff off in my sleep. If you are truely afraid I promise I will protect you up to and including throwing myself between you and those big, bad LP JBTs.

Put up or shut up.

stay safe.

* - if your recollection of me is that I have a hip problem, as opposed to my looks or my personality, then I have failed miserably.

 

[Wolf_shadow]

Meeting me does nothing to establish the credibility of your claims.*

You are correct - $10K/year is not an outlandish figure. It's only $192.31 per week. But I needed a calculator to figure that out - I'm betting the manager will need to do that also.

What "worst" are you referring to? A couple of gorillas hulking around near you? If you have met me you should know that I laugh that sort of stuff off in my sleep. If you are truely afraid I promise I will protect you up to and including throwing myself between you and those big, bad LP JBTs.

Put up or shut up.

stay safe.

* - if your recollection of me is that I have a hip problem, as opposed to my looks or my personality, then I have failed miserably.

Be nice Santa/teddy bear. ;-)

Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk

 

[peter nap]

Be nice Santa/teddy bear. ;-)

Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk

[video=vimeo;26791089]http://vimeo.com/26791089[/video]

 

[willow140]

Walmart person here

I have worked for walmart for 19+ years. I worked in a small walmart store in NC,
only 79,000 sq ft. before moving to Co.
I was an hourly support manager in charge of the overnight shift for 7 years.

I can tell you current walmart policy. There is no policy to follow open carriers. Not since I have worked for walmart.
Our little store in NC had many open carriers it was common place. Stores do not have the time or people to follow them.
Our store because of its size closed a midnight so I was lucky to have two cashiers and 4 people on the fooor not counting stockers.

Walmart policy when confronting a shoplifter is for a manager to make contact and try ( key word ) get them back to the office. If the refuse and keep
walking they are to let them go and call the ploice and try to get a tag number if they are in a car. Walmart does not allow you chase
them, tackle or in any way prevent them form leaving. That what camera are for. Years past yes we did that. But not anymore.

Walmarts policy when a weapon is used is to retreat. We are not allowed to try to take it away, period. Basically duty to retreat.

Hope this helps

 

[paramedic70002]

Ten LP personnel? In one store? At the same time? On one customer? Wow.

And by "wow," I mean, are you sure about that?

 

[Mongoose72]

Walmarts Offical LP Policy

Here is the official policy for LP and detentions. While its obvious that the company seeks to put safety first; this is not always followed by actual employees with quotas and fantasies of being LEOs. The important part is that they are not to approach an armed customer. Nor are they to attempt to disarm one. "Reasonable" use of force against the unarmed is still allowed. Also, I would say at least 10 employees are involved in someway in each of the first 2 videos.
Walmart Asset Protection Manual: AP-09 still allows for use of force.
http://media.bonnint.net/slc/2489/248982/24898223.pdf

For instance it takes 4 employees to pin this woman to a wall, with several more keeping the crowd back.
4 guys needed to stop one woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy1aSnZOl5M

This employee met the same fate, pinned on the ground by multiple persons. More surrounding as back up.
Employee being detained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n51qldwpYU

This is how fast things go down in the real world. Of course this guy was an actual shoplifter, but an innocent person falsely profiled would be set upon just as fast. Any real world self defense usage of force scenarios against criminals will happen just as fast; something to thing about when getting that level 4 retention holster.
Big Guy stealing beef
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKoZrfvTqjY

Walmart does follow their own policy when it comes to disarming someone as they fired these LP guys, even though I would have done the same thing they did as it was self defense.
Employees fired for disarming shoplifter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi0EM8G1_MU

This is what many LP guys look like around here. Who else would risk their life for $9 per hour?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-rjYiZGLN8


Long documentary on shoplifting and Organized Retail Crime and the steps taken to combat it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7seOlegcOis

So in conclusion, Walmart is no different than any other company when it comes to these policies. I simply had the misfortune to go to one with a totally out of control LP department. I no longer go to that location and I almost always open carry.

PS Is there a reason why Vimeo is preferred over YouTube on this site?

 

[Maverick9]

MG, I read all your posts. You are detailed, polite (here), sincere. That's good.

But, I see this undertone of asking permission to be confrontational, asking if/when it's OK to use your firearm to prevent the ding to your ego, or your understanding of rights.

I get the sense you wish you could make society 'just', get justice, and you see Walmart as society in a microcosm.

I know it eats at you that people can do this in isolated stores to an innocent and law abiding citizen.

BUT YOU will not ever get satisfaction, relief, justice, recognition this way.

It's wrong of them, I get it. But you are trying to find a 'ground' to fight this battle. Don't fight battles you can't win. Avoid them.

Seriously, AVOID these things because they're making you neurotic (over time). Think about this - if you lose your carry rights how are you going to protect your family in the event of a REAL threat in the gravest extreme?

You KNOW you could avoid all this by ratcheting it down a couple notches. Go to the store (if you must) alone. Go to a different store. Go at a different time.

It's your RIGHT to go how, when and with whom you choose, but again, don't seek a battle here - avoid it.

HTH

 

[Mongoose72]

Resonse to Skidmark

Meeting me does nothing to establish the credibility of your claims.*

You are correct - $10K/year is not an outlandish figure. It's only $192.31 per week. But I needed a calculator to figure that out - I'm betting the manager will need to do that also.

What "worst" are you referring to? A couple of gorillas hulking around near you? If you have met me you should know that I laugh that sort of stuff off in my sleep. If you are truely afraid I promise I will protect you up to and including throwing myself between you and those big, bad LP JBTs.

Put up or shut up.

stay safe.

* - if your recollection of me is that I have a hip problem, as opposed to my looks or my personality, then I have failed miserably.

I am trying to being gentle out of respect for all of the good work done by yourself and others for open carry rights. Also I need to show some respect for my elders. Having said that; I do recall that you have an extreme case of Christophobia (fear of Christians). http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/library/christianophobia/ I think that you said you felt safer around criminals in a prison than at a church. I also recall that poor Grapeshot stares at the ceiling half of the time when you are going off on one of your diatribes. Am I missing anything important?
If you are willing to pay for steaks for me and my wife, reasonable consultation fees, and my travel expenses we can come to Traks on the 10th and you can question our recollections all you like.

On a side note I hope Justine starts organizing more stuff down here. Most of the Richmond bunch is ok but there are some real characters too; must be something in the water.

 

[Mongoose72]

MG, I read all your posts. You are detailed, polite (here), sincere. That's good.

But, I see this undertone of asking permission to be confrontational, asking if/when it's OK to use your firearm to prevent the ding to your ego, or your understanding of rights.

I get the sense you wish you could make society 'just', get justice, and you see Walmart as society in a microcosm.

I know it eats at you that people can do this in isolated stores to an innocent and law abiding citizen.

BUT YOU will not ever get satisfaction, relief, justice, recognition this way.

It's wrong of them, I get it. But you are trying to find a 'ground' to fight this battle. Don't fight battles you can't win. Avoid them.

Seriously, AVOID these things because they're making you neurotic (over time). Think about this - if you lose your carry rights how are you going to protect your family in the event of a REAL threat in the gravest extreme?

You KNOW you could avoid all this by ratcheting it down a couple notches. Go to the store (if you must) alone. Go to a different store. Go at a different time.

It's your RIGHT to go how, when and with whom you choose, but again, don't seek a battle here - avoid it.

HTH

Good advise. I have already started to do most of what you have suggested. A lot of interracial couples do not go out in public due to such things. If I was a minority, I would be used to being profiled for no reason. I have already stopped going to the worst store, and will try to change my shopping schedule to avoid late nights if possible. When they were playing their games my first reaction was to get ready to call the police; not to get into it with them. I can't think of much else to do.

 

[Maverick9]

Good advise. I have already started to do most of what you have suggested. A lot of interracial couples do not go out in public due to such things. If I was a minority, I would be used to being profiled for no reason. I have already stopped going to the worst store, and will try to change my shopping schedule to avoid late nights if possible. When they were playing their games my first reaction was to get ready to call the police; not to get into it with them. I can't think of much else to do.

Good on you, except, do not call the cops. Never call the cops. Leave the store, leave your merchandise in the cart. Seriously. I have never had a good outcome by involving LE (2x, both neutral outcome but not helpful).

You will get 'involved' with these thugs by doing so. Do you want them to know your personal details, show up at your house? Paranoid, perhaps. You can't punish them, even though they should be punished for this.

In any bad situation, you should call your lawyer first, ambulance second. Let the cops show up if they must. Perhaps call 911 if you are forced to brandish or are nearly assaulted and the perp might call on you first (wrongly). But, even then, if I could do it anonymously I would. Think about how calling the cops would help you...maybe call if you are abducted from inside some perp's trunk, lol, but they'd show up and you'd risk taking a bullet through the car by accident.

Only call the cops if you absolutely must. Even a death in the family, call the lawyer first, then the coroner. When you call them, they investigate YOU first a lot of the time - yeah, it's nutty.

Edit to add: Not ALL cop involvement is like this. I've had, come to think of it, one good encounter of three. You could get lucky, lol.

FWIW.

 

[Grapeshot]

I have worked for walmart for 19+ years. I worked in a small walmart store in NC,
only 79,000 sq ft. before moving to Co.
I was an hourly support manager in charge of the overnight shift for 7 years.

I can tell you current walmart policy. There is no policy to follow open carriers. Not since I have worked for walmart.
Our little store in NC had many open carriers it was common place. Stores do not have the time or people to follow them.
Our store because of its size closed a midnight so I was lucky to have two cashiers and 4 people on the fooor not counting stockers.

Walmart policy when confronting a shoplifter is for a manager to make contact and try ( key word ) get them back to the office. If the refuse and keep
walking they are to let them go and call the ploice and try to get a tag number if they are in a car. Walmart does not allow you chase
them, tackle or in any way prevent them form leaving. That what camera are for. Years past yes we did that. But not anymore.

Walmarts policy when a weapon is used is to retreat. We are not allowed to try to take it away, period. Basically duty to retreat.

Hope this helps

Thank you - your description of Wal-Mart's internal policy is exactly as I understood it to be.

 

[Grapeshot]

I am trying to being gentle out of respect for all of the good work done by yourself and others for open carry rights. Also I need to show some respect for my elders. Having said that; I do recall that you have an extreme case of Christophobia (fear of Christians). http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/library/christianophobia/ I think that you said you felt safer around criminals in a prison than at a church. I also recall that poor Grapeshot stares at the ceiling half of the time when you are going off on one of your diatribes. Am I missing anything important?
If you are willing to pay for steaks for me and my wife, reasonable consultation fees, and my travel expenses we can come to Traks on the 10th and you can question our recollections all you like.

On a side note I hope Justine starts organizing more stuff down here. Most of the Richmond bunch is ok but there are some real characters too; must be something in the water.

You should have stopped while you were ahead.

Making reference to something Skid said out of context is ridiculous, especially if you do not get his brand of irony or tongue-in-cheek exposure to being a Christian doesn't guarantee a person's conduct.

Poor Grapeshot - really? I do not sit and stare at the ceiling ever, period, exclamation point - I find your depiction insulting. Because I don't talk while eating is a direct result of radiation treatment to the base of my tongue - it doesn't multitask well anymore. Likely too that I have heard Skid's story before and don't see the need to comment. So yes you missed a lot that was important.

You're more than welcome to join us at Trak's and enjoy both the food and the conversation; however, we would ask that no contentious, disagreeable conversations take place at the table or otherwise in public. We do converse outside after the meal on the sidewalk/parking lot, where we debrief and cover topics not suitable for public dissemination yet.

 

[Mongoose72]

You should have stopped while you were ahead.

Making reference to something Skid said out of context is ridiculous, especially if you do not get his brand of irony or tongue-in-cheek exposure to being a Christian doesn't guarantee a person's conduct.

Poor Grapeshot - really? I do not sit and stare at the ceiling ever, period, exclamation point - I find your depiction insulting. Because I don't talk while eating is a direct result of radiation treatment to the base of my tongue - it doesn't multitask well anymore. Likely too that I have heard Skid's story before and don't see the need to comment. So yes you missed a lot that was important.

You're more than welcome to join us at Trak's and enjoy both the food and the conversation; however, we would ask that no contentious, disagreeable conversations take place at the table or otherwise in public. We do converse outside after the meal on the sidewalk/parking lot, where we debrief and cover topics not suitable for public dissemination yet.

Grape,

No offense was intended. I was joking myself. I am a quiet respectful guy, not a loudmouth or a hot head. I think you guys need to lighten up and not making joking only one way. Sorry to hear about your conditions. One of the reasons I have been respectful despite the numerous jokes and insults thrown at me is to gain some insights from those with more experiences in open carry matters than myself.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Grape,

No offense was intended. I was joking myself. I am a quiet respectful guy, not a loudmouth or a hot head. I think you guys need to lighten up and not making joking only one way. Sorry to hear about your conditions. One of the reasons I have been respectful despite the numerous jokes and insults thrown at me is to gain some insights from those with more experiences in open carry matters than myself.

I think you need to read your post again, it was hardly joking, it was personal attacks. You claiming personal attacks were joking makes it even worse. If this is your idea of joking I can see why you have problems in public. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder, and I am sure LP picks up on it.

 

[Mongoose72]

Future Postings

In future postings I will try to avoid details and simply ask general questions as too many seem to get bogged down in the details. For instance rather than sharing personal anecdotes I would have simply asked when (if ever) do others here feel that it is ok to relinquish their firearm to non LEOs? On other forums where this question was raised about LP the reaction was the polar opposite of the forum members here; the general consensus was never. There obviously is a large difference in the collective ethos between the OC crowd and the general gun community on this and many other issues. I actually didn't know that many here would gladly hand over their firearm to non-LEOs; so this has been enlightening.

Numerous times what has been posted is twisted into something else. I am not sure if this is because the responder cannot follow the words and logic of the posting, or if he is purposefully distorting it for rhetorical reasons? I am leaning towards the latter. Nevertheless overall this is a useful forum where many do operate in good faith to spread their own personal knowledge about open carry related issues.

And while what I post will always be done in good faith and (I will not engage in outright trolling), I think for the benefit of discussion a poster should have the freedom of taking stances which they may or may not totally agree with (play devil's advocate) for the sake of discussion and inquiry.

Finally Walmart is and will continue to be my favorite store. They have the best prices and selection of all of the big box stores; and are a strong supporter of the second amendment. I just as easily could have run into rogue LPs at any other store chain.

I am not a professional poster or forum moderator; thus I have some actual work to do and will probably have to step back a bit from this one. I will try to comment if something important is said, but I think that I have learned my lesson on this one (about how this particular forum operates) and I will try to keep discussions as general as possible.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Who the helll here suggest relinquishing a firearm to a non leo(LP)!?

You sir have a problem with reading comprehension. It would seem you see or read what you want to be there, not actually what is there.