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VCDL - More P4P Than Ever!!!
- Thread starter Thundar
- Start date
LouieLouie
New member
Think about the Overton Window and your approach to how VCDL supports bills. The goal is to create a legal environment that is more and more gun-friendly. It is not going to happen all at once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
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papa bear
Regular Member
easy peasy. the state of VA goes by the US constitution and the constitution of VA. that says you are allowed to carry a firearm. so you can carry in VA without permission of your government. in other words you don't need a permit to carry in VA
Cite being the second amendment. constitution of VA, article one; section 13 gives clear carry
http://vaguninfo.com/documents/VirginiaGunRights.pdf
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mpguy
Regular Member
Ok now I'm confused. What's all the extra talk of constitutional carry? Is it for the concealed option?
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
The two most stupid statements in a week
Last week, Delegate Fariss said:
"Those of us schooled in the 12 commandments want to keep the Sabbath Holy"
Well Matthew, I didn't go to church yesterday because I already know how many commandments there are!
This week, the VCDL Alert said:
Senator Stuart says that the freedom to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle is not a Second Amendment issue, but I strongly disagree with that. What good is an unloaded gun? The Second Amendment is NOT about the right to keep and bear unloaded guns.
Well Philip or whoever, The second amendment isn't about only allowing a small group of special people having the right to keep and bear loaded weapons either.
Last week, Delegate Fariss said:
"Those of us schooled in the 12 commandments want to keep the Sabbath Holy"
Well Matthew, I didn't go to church yesterday because I already know how many commandments there are!
This week, the VCDL Alert said:
Senator Stuart says that the freedom to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle is not a Second Amendment issue, but I strongly disagree with that. What good is an unloaded gun? The Second Amendment is NOT about the right to keep and bear unloaded guns.
Well Philip or whoever, The second amendment isn't about only allowing a small group of special people having the right to keep and bear loaded weapons either.
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On the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
One unlicensed truck a roaring.
On the second day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Two black long guns for bearing.
On the third day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Three 30 round magazines a waiting.
On the fourth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Four Class 3 handguns for carrying.
On the fifth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Five hand made dirks a nicking.
On the sixth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Six bottles of 'shine for drinking.
On the seventh day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Seven dogs a baying.
On the eighth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Eight delegates not considering.
On the ninth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Nine anti advocates lying.
On the tenth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Ten orgs promising.
On the eleventh day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Eleven lawyers for choosing.
And on the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me,
Twelve felon's Golden Ruuules.....and a state[strike]farm[/strike]room of my own.
Merry Christmas (a little late) from your General Assembly (our true love as seen above).
P.S. Lobbyists are invited to sit directly on the glass spire at the top of the Christmas tree.....no I insist you first
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I think you meant Wyoming rather than Montana. Montana is still a permit state. Even Wyoming only allows its state residents concealed carry without a permit; out-of-state citizens still need a permit in Wyoming.
papa bear
Regular Member
OPEN CARRY is constitutionally protected. you have the right by both the US constitution and the VA constitution to carry a firearm. Concealed Carry is a privilege, and one you pay for. with many loops you have to jump through. there is a reason that concealed carry was made illegal.
i am not against CC, i just prefer to carry Open, the way honest people have always done
wrearick
Regular Member
I hear you but that is not what I see. Numerous states outside of Virginia either do not allow Open Carry or require a permit to open carry. I agree based on lack of restrictions Virginia constitution restricts second ammendment rights by putting restrictions on concealed carry that results in "Open Carry" being allowed in all but a few places but the 2nd Amendment does NOT limit it's protection to "Open Carry" vice Concealed Carry - It grants the right to keep and bear arms and makes NO mention of the manner the bearing of arms shall take. This is the heart of what I see as the issue in this country. Without reallizing it, often with compelling arguments we have taken the 2A rights and chipped away at it, and carved niches where it no longer applies, all the while saying "the majority of the folks will not notice a difference because we have left the "basic" parts of the right intact and only restricted the parts it was "reasonable" to restrict.....and that steady errosion and arguments of "that is not what the founding fathers intended" have gotten us to the brink of folks talking about it being reasonable for there to be NO RIGHT at ALL for Joe Citizen to keep and bear arms.....it's not "reasonable" in today's environment!" We need to push back. Most on here would support a complete reset of the laws back to no restrictions at all and don't EVER touch it again. I hope and pray for that but don't think it will ever happen in on fell swoop. It is going to take a great deal of time and effort to push this wagon back up the hill. there is no "EASY" red reset button we can push (other than open revolt) so we will have to do it one step at a time. There IS a chance to get back to the original starting point recinding the infractions one step at a time - the same way the right was erroded away. It will take effort and time and not be easy and I agree shouldn't be necessary but it is.
I would love to be out of debt but short of winning some lottery it is going to take a lot of time and effort and one step after another. I have been working on it for over 4 years now. I hate having to work two jobs but as things start to get paid off the process starts to snowball and things pick up speed. That is what I hope will happen with gun rights as we recover from the abuses of past administrations (of both parties), but I am a dreamer and have often been acused of being unrealistic.
Wolf_shadow
Activist Member
Where in the 2nd amendment of the Constitution does it say to bear arms as long as it is openly carried? Just because some where the government decided they wanted to know who might be carrying a concealed firearm doesn't mean their rule is Constitutional. Constitutional carry means I should be able to carry the way I want or need to at the time, be it openly or concealed.
Do you believe a criminal carrying concealed cares about not having a CHP? Use of a firearm in the commission of a crime is one thing, requiring a permission slip to carry concealed is another. CHP's are nothing more than a way for the powers that be to control the law abiding citizens.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
A permit to carry a handgun, regardless of open or concealed, is just a special tax on people who want to carry a handgun outside their home. The fact that the state is taxing what should be right is the wrong. If permits were not revenue generators, few states would have them. At least Virginia has not yet made a viable effort to tax open carry; however, with all the new democrats recently on board this could change. Virginia's CHP could change into a license to carry as it currently is in some other nearby states.
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Thundar
Regular Member
Handgun permits, like 99% of all gun control is about the control (not the gun). The fees generate little income, but the permanent file the permit creates is information, control and POWER for the statists.
Constitutional Carry negates the need for a permit from the state. This destroys the power associated with the information collected to obtain the permit.
Constitutional carry also destroys most P4P. No special privileges for useless permits.
Live Free or Die
VCDL President
Centurion
Twisted view
Sure a lot of belly-aching going on. By no means were all the "P4P" bills put in for VCDL. In fact we have several that were for the benefit of non-CHP holders.
If someone puts in a "P4P" bill that moves the ball forward, VCDL is going to support it. Period. Likewise, if there is a non-P4P bill that moves the ball forward, VCDL is going to support it, too. Walking away from either one would be silly.
Don't assume that just because we strongly support a bill, that it was put in for us. Some of them were put in for us, absolutely. But don't be so quick to jump to conclusions based on our support of a bill. We support the good ones and oppose the bad ones, regardless of WHO puts them in.
Sometimes we push permits as a way to get our foot in the door, so we can come back and drop that requirement (loaded long guns in vehicles is an example of where that strategy was going to be employed). Other times it is to improve things that deal only with permits. Permits are a fact of life. They are also an option. No one is forcing anyone to have to have one. Completely optional. But over 330,000 gun owners have chosen that option and we want to expand concealed carry laws as far as we can take them. We also support Constitutional Carry. I believe that Campbell's bill was struck most probably for constitutional reasons - it only allowed someone who lives in the Commonwealth to exercise the right to carry concealed without a permit. That, I'm sure, was a problem.
Sure a lot of belly-aching going on. By no means were all the "P4P" bills put in for VCDL. In fact we have several that were for the benefit of non-CHP holders.
If someone puts in a "P4P" bill that moves the ball forward, VCDL is going to support it. Period. Likewise, if there is a non-P4P bill that moves the ball forward, VCDL is going to support it, too. Walking away from either one would be silly.
Don't assume that just because we strongly support a bill, that it was put in for us. Some of them were put in for us, absolutely. But don't be so quick to jump to conclusions based on our support of a bill. We support the good ones and oppose the bad ones, regardless of WHO puts them in.
Sometimes we push permits as a way to get our foot in the door, so we can come back and drop that requirement (loaded long guns in vehicles is an example of where that strategy was going to be employed). Other times it is to improve things that deal only with permits. Permits are a fact of life. They are also an option. No one is forcing anyone to have to have one. Completely optional. But over 330,000 gun owners have chosen that option and we want to expand concealed carry laws as far as we can take them. We also support Constitutional Carry. I believe that Campbell's bill was struck most probably for constitutional reasons - it only allowed someone who lives in the Commonwealth to exercise the right to carry concealed without a permit. That, I'm sure, was a problem.
No bellyaching on my part Philip. Just stating facts!
As I said earlier in this thread which I doubt you read completely, I don't see any problems with a lot, actually most of the bills, but SB 368 is unacceptable.
Can't say about anyone else...actually I can for some, but for me....Stuart did us a favor. Different reasons but the same result. We don't even have to agree to disagree....we just disagree!
Sorry if you don't care for it.
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marshaul
Campaign Veteran
I'm gonna remember this little bit of defeatism next time I elect not to renew my membership.
Yep - better to stand alone, than to swing together......errr think you'll still be in the group then.
Giant steps are great, particularly from an org getting 100%/AAA rating from all of their members. Ignore the smaller steps, they'll never add up to much anyway. (sarcasm)
Do you lobby, present bills, report on status, speak at committee meetings regularly or do you let someone else do that for you?
Thundar
Regular Member
Thank you Philip. The P4P mentality perfectly encapsulated.
Making minor P4P bills a strongly supported item does dilute and diminish the strong support that VCDL sometimes, but not always, give to gun rights bills. Yes, P4P harms gun rights.
Maybe permits are a fact of life because there is no vision to eliminate the requirement for them.
Yes we are forced to have permits in order to receive certain legal benefits, some of which are not even related to handguns!
Please do not be deluded into thinking that fighting for special privileges for those who obtain a government permission slip is in any way the same as fighting for gun rights. Sometimes fighting for perks works against our rights.
I would be remiss if I did not point out that The VCDL board is not free from those that profit from CHP instruction in Virginia.
Live Free or Die,
Thundar
Marco
Regular Member
1+!
I've got to ask. Did anyone with some political clout ask the patron to reword any bills to include everyone not just CHP'ers???? That would have been leveling the playing field.
And if the answer is yes, was that done before or after the two thumbs up was given?
1+! 2A supporters/Gun Owners/ freedom lovers were fooled into supporting National carry for LE thinking LE as a whole would do the same.. it has never happened, supporting P4P's is no different.
Sadly, some of us feel like (know) we are standing alone or at least on the outside of the tent, and that's not because we aren't standing next to you during the fight.
I can find many groups which I could say I should join because we are fighting for OR against something similar.
I want to belong to a group that I can say we are fighting for and against the same things.
The below comments not directed at Grapeshot.
IMHO, giving permit holders extra incentives to keep fighting for the permit state and not expand 2A rights beyond permits hurts more than helps.
Why would most CHP holders especailly the CC only crowd fight for expanding rights for all gun owners if you keep giving them special favors for having a permit? (rhetorical)
Gun owners would never stand for out right gun registration yet many are willing line up and pay to get registered as a handgun permit holder (owner).
Permits aren't bad, thinking the permit makes you better, safer, more moral or entitles the holder to anything beyond the decriminalization of hiding a gun is just wrong.
Yep, permits are a fact of life and are here to stay only because it is a huge money maker for some and others feel it makes them superior to others.
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Thundar
Regular Member
I sell firearms at fair prices to my fellow Virginians, I bring many to the range for the first time and teach them about firearms and the joy of shooting.
I work a lot on ballot access, growing the only party that fights for all of our civil rights.
I often needle my delegate, Mame BaCote, ******* her off by open carrying at her public events where possible.
The "small steps" of P4P are not in the right direction. They expend time and energy on a false achievements and reinforce bad behavior.
As far as standing alone, I can assure you that we are not alone. There are many that fight the good fight and achieve all sorts of victories for liberty. It is OK for Philip and the VCDL Board if they choose the false path of P4P. It is still a mostly free country after all. Please do not, however, paint a false picture that we are alone or that we are abandoning gun rights. It is VCDL that is abandoning the hard path of fighting for our rights. It is VCDL that is instead choosing to graze in what they see as the greener pastures of P4P.
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