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Michael Brown unarmed shooting in Ferguson, MO

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OC for ME

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The media seems to always be on the frantic edge, trying to beat out the other media sources. Some initial reports turn out to be mistaken, a person has to try to pick through the mumble jumble and make rational common sense of it. Then there is the evidence that is clear and cannot be disputed either way which is what I try to base my opinions on. When I find a case interesting I search for those bits of evidence in the forest. There is one one the cell phone video, Wilson is not receiving medical treatment for a fractured skull. Cell phone images are grainy, so he may have had visible injuries, but I could not see them on that video and cannot understand why he was not receiving medical treatment and allowed to be in the crime scene.

There is plenty for DOJ to investigate, IMO he should be treated no different than George Zimmerman. If he is innocent he will be acquitted at trial.
If he was justified it will never go to trial just as GZ should not have gone to trial. The Stanford cops got it right and then thrown under the bus for doing a good and proper job. I suspect the same here if the cop is found to have been justified.
 

wimwag

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If he was justified it will never go to trial just as GZ should not have gone to trial. The Stanford cops got it right and then thrown under the bus for doing a good and proper job. I suspect the same here if the cop is found to have been justified.


And the GZ haters appear in 3...2...
 

wittmeba

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I don't think anyone can brush aside the idea that MB an attitude and the ability to intimidate others. He did it in the store, the street when told to "get on the F****** sidewalk and possibly again with the officer at the vehicle.
 

WalkingWolf

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I don't think anyone can brush aside the idea that MB an attitude and the ability to intimidate others. He did it in the store, the street when told to "get on the F****** sidewalk and possibly again with the officer at the vehicle.

I know many young men with a attitude, if that was justification for execution then only us old men would be around.
 

357SigFan

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The media articles today are pretty nutty. Some say "autopsy supports Police's story" some say "autopsy supports witnesses." I read a headline that uses a quote from a radio station saying "Dorian Johnson admits Brown attacked, officer won't be charged" but doesn't say when or how he attacked, and it's unconfirmed so I don't know why they would print it. Same with that radio call in "witness" the other day which contradicts the Chief of Police's statements regarding the awareness of Wilson to the robbery. The store owner never even called the cops. Then I see this video. I think it's safe to say that SHHTF in the media frenzy.

The thing is, with the INCOMPLETE evidence that's been officially released so far, you really could draw a conclusion either way. About all we've gotten so far is witness testimony and incomplete autopsy data. There simply hasn't been enough evidence presented to the public to draw an educated conclusion. Certainly not enough to convict anyone of murder. My guess is that the incomplete release of information is intentional.

Most/all of the wounds, based on the data we have, could have occurred either if he was stationary or if he was running at Wilson.

Consider this: The guys that did the second autopsy said they thought the chest wound was possibly/likely a re-entry wound. Assuming that's correct, What did it hit first? What COULD it have hit first? Hold your right arm in front of your chest in a position that it could possibly end up in if your arms were 'pumping' while running. You'll probably note that the approximate location of the wound on his forearm could possibly line up with the approximate location of the chest wound. Now, the data that could either connect those two wounds or rule out that possibility is missing (at least from what we've been told so far). Was there an exit wound on his forearm? If there was (I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that a bullet would not pass through his forearm), what was the path, and could that path line up with the wound on his chest? What was the path of the bullet that entered his chest? Does that path line up with the path through his forearm? If those paths do all line up, is it a realistic possibility that his arm was in a position consistent with someone that was running? We don't have that info, so without it, it's pure speculation.

Assume for a second that the forearm wound DOES line up with the chest wound (among other details we don't have). Consider the reaction if these two guys that were called out by the family to prove that Brown was shot while standing still, with his hands up in surrender, came out with something to the effect of 'Based on the entry and exit wounds on Mr Brown's forearm, the wound lines up with the re-entry wound on his chest, indicating a high probability that his arm was in front of him in a motion consistent with someone that was running, and the wounds to his forearm and chest were from the same bullet. Furthermore, the abrasions on his face are consistent with someone hitting the ground while running, not someone that collapsed forward while stationary. In our professional opinion, Mr Brown was running in the direction of Officer Wilson when he was shot'. I imagine some would accept it, grieve and move on, while others, such as the troublemakers that are coming in from out of town, would likely rile up more rioting, looting and violence, saying there's no way that's correct.
 

marshaul

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The thing is, with the INCOMPLETE evidence that's been officially released so far, you really could draw a conclusion either way. About all we've gotten so far is witness testimony and incomplete autopsy data. There simply hasn't been enough evidence presented to the public to draw an educated conclusion. Certainly not enough to convict anyone of murder. My guess is that the incomplete release of information is intentional.

Yup. This is why police must begin collecting video evidence of every encounter (much less shooting). They could have preempted all this by simply having a decent video.

But they think they like it better this way: they get to be the heroes who were righteous all along in the face of mindless rioters and general anarchy. And, even if their guy wasn't justified, they'd still have half of everybody on their side and they could just sweep it under the rug after a couple weeks. What's to lose?

The citizenry deserve better. And the police do not deserve the credence assigned to them by the justice "system". Mandatory (with teeth) video recording is the reform I want to see come out of all this.
 
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cloudcroft

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Nothing wrong with Vigilance Committees -- they are as American as Apple Pie.

And contrary to ignorant public & press belief -- just as erroneous as their "understanding" of the so-called "Wild West" in American history -- Vigilance Committees were not at all bad! And don't tell me the BS about "they can get out of hand and go after innocent people" -- ANYTHING can get out of hand, including our so-called "justice system" and the LEOS who enforce it. Who's not seen or heard THAT happening countless numbers of time -- but not recently in Ferguson as the cop made a good shoot there, despite all the "victim's" violent friends/family and other assorted (some imported I read) trash there now out in the streets shouting otherwise -- as they ALWAYS do. And they KNOW they lie...

So that's a lame argument that some "Vigilance Committees" did/could get out of hand. MOSTLY, they were We the People filling a vacuum, period. And dealing with criminals/troublemakers in no-nonsense ways.

We could sure could use some of that "true grit" and spine today. Well, SOME Americans still have it, but aren't in a position of power to USE it. Our "leadership" has the position & power, but not the spine. Go figure...

I think the "stuff" going on in Ferguson presently -- besides declaring Open Season (my personal preference) rather than Martial Law -- could be addressed in short order by such a Committee. For one example, just writing 3-7-77 on some doors in Montana back in the day got results (people knew who the troublemakers were in their own towns -- in Ferguson, it's in-your-face obvious who they are). If the "recipient" of 3-7-77 didn't get the message and didn't leave town ASAP, well...

Many other towns had Vigilance Committees, too.

I couldn't care less about any "rights" of criminals (judged so by their acts) -- just get rid of them. Permanently. It's no-mess-no-fuss easy.

Really...trust me. ;-)

Regardless, if there IS no "law & order" in a location (for whatever reason), then it's up to the people who live there to take care of it, however they choose to. Part of that is related to John Locke's "Social Contract" concept, but mostly, it's just plain common sense (which lots of people HAD back then, unlike today), and of course, it's just the American Way.

But that's how it should be...
 
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OC for ME

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Yup. This is why police must begin collecting video evidence of every encounter (much less shooting). They could have preempted all this by simply having a decent video.

But they think they like it better this way: they get to be the heroes who were righteous all along in the face of mindless rioters and general anarchy. And, even if their guy wasn't justified, they'd still have half of everybody on their side and they could just sweep it under the rug after a couple weeks. What's to lose?

The citizenry deserve better. And the police do not deserve the credence assigned to them by the justice "system". Mandatory (with teeth) video recording is the reform I want to see come out of all this.
Reported today, Ferguson will be issued dash and lapel cameras. To address the concerns of the q-munity.
 

LMTD

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Well now, we have Officer F-yourself making sure that exactly what is being protested is indeed the reality and earned himself a suspension since there was a cam involved:

http://mashable.com/2014/08/20/police-officer-go-****-yourself-ferguson/

And on the flip side before any one begins to whine aloud, Johnson, the guy with Mike Brown has now reg=canted his story and admitted both he and Brown attacked officer Wilson we are right back where we started eh?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1028283/pg1

Looters make protesters look bad
Officer f-yourself makes LEO's look bad
Officer Wilson quite possibly a victim of the entire mess
the media hypes all positions and politicians continue to grandstand on the whole thing

Losers = law abiding citizens only seeking freedom for themselves and others.

No more whining about it for those of you whom troll around trying to suppress any opinion other than your own and spin better than Clinton...




UTB
 

marshaul

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Well now, we have Officer F-yourself making sure that exactly what is being protested is indeed the reality and earned himself a suspension since there was a cam involved

I know, right?

I guess the protesters get a little bit of that "self-fulfilling prophecy" goodness, too.

(Earlier I was talking about how a heavy-handed police presence at a protest creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of rioting which police intentionally nurture, in order to subsequently justify their jobs using the inevitable property damage they, conveniently, didn't actually prevent.)
 
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LMTD

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I know, right?

I guess the protesters get a little bit of that "self-fulfilling prophecy" goodness, too.

(Earlier I was talking about how a heavy-handed police presence at a protest creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of rioting which police intentionally nurture, in order to subsequently justify their jobs using the inevitable property damage they, conveniently, didn't actually prevent.)

And right now on CNN the counter protesters aka wilson supporters have arrived
 

The Truth

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Man what a waste of time talking about the actual shooting when Johnson was a little weasel liar about the attack the entire time. I was wondering when the next tactical move would be made. There are still many things unanswered, hopefully we will soon learn more about what happened after the attack or what led up to it. Gettin' there!
 

OC for ME

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...after the attack? bang bang bang bang bang bang...maybe another bang...and maybe another bang.

The cop is a victim, whether or not it is a justified moniker remains to be seen.
 

marshaul

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Man what a waste of time talking about the actual shooting when Johnson was a little weasel liar about the attack the entire time.

There are huge swathes of Americans who view the police as inherently un-trustworthy, much the same way that courts tend to view police as inherently trustworthy. That these people were wrong this time doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate history of grievances to build on.

Hopefully this will be part of a wake-up call to require our public servants to record their interactions with the public. If that happens, the discussion wasn't a waste, because it helps us remember exactly how vague and misleading witnesses, suppositions, and facts out of context can be, and that these are exactly the reasons why police should record: otherwise, the schism continues to grow instead of healing, because folks can always cherry pick the facts to ensure their continued rectitude (at least in their own minds). But cold, hard video will convince most anybody, and then, maybe, for once most of us can find ourselves on the same "side".
 
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The Truth

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There are huge swathes of Americans who view the police as inherently un-trustworthy, much the same way that courts tend to view police as inherently trustworthy. That these people were wrong this time doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate history of grievances to build on.

Hopefully this will be part of a wake-up call to require our public servants to record their interactions with the public. If that happens, the discussion wasn't a waste, because it helps us remember exactly how vague and misleading witnesses, suppositions, and facts out of context can be, and that these are exactly the reasons why police should record: otherwise, the schism continues to grow instead of healing, because folks can always cherry pick the facts to ensure their continued rectitude (at least in their own minds). But cold, hard video will convince most anybody, and then, maybe, for once most of us can find ourselves on the same "side".

+1
 
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