Michael Brown unarmed shooting in Ferguson, MO

[Redbaron007]

That's a weak claim to make, and does nothing to support any argument based on evidence in the case. That is called ad hominem. It might not be fallacious, that is for you to prove, but that doesn't make it a strong argument.

Sure! This has nothing to do with the fact that Brown died X number of feet away from the cruiser, witnesses claim he ran, then turned around and surrendered with his hands raised - and physical evidence does not unequivocally refute these claims - and Brown was unarmed. You're right, everyone that wants Wilson to be prosecuted is just ignorant, blind cop haters.

No, just no.

Facts are, Brown as a result of gunshot wounds. After that, you (not The Truth directly) have allegedly witnesses saying things that support both sides, plus we haven't heard from all witnesses their story...only those the media and the Browns' family have chosen to release. As of now, a lot of the facts are not public......we do not know what the GJ is seeing. As with the Zimmerman trial....lots of opinions based upon media info (some were accurate than others) but in this case, it's hard to determine anything.

 

[The Truth]

Facts are, Brown as a result of gunshot wounds. After that, you (not The Truth directly) have allegedly witnesses saying things that support both sides, plus we haven't heard from all witnesses their story...only those the media and the Browns' family have chosen to release. As of now, a lot of the facts are not public......we do not know what the GJ is seeing. As with the Zimmerman trial....lots of opinions based upon media info (some were accurate than others) but in this case, it's hard to determine anything.

You're right. The true nature of the situation is very difficult to ascertain.

 

[WalkingWolf]

You're right. The true nature of the situation is very difficult to ascertain.

Much as it was in the Zimmerman trial, the prosecution had secret evidence nobody saw, until the trial and no such evidence appeared. If Zimmerman had been a cop he would never have gone to trial, or arrested. There was also blood on Zimmerman's gun, didn't mean jack in court.

I don't care if Brown raped Wilson, the moment Brown surrendered it was unjustified to shoot him any further.

 

[Redbaron007]

Much as it was in the Zimmerman trial, the prosecution had secret evidence nobody saw, until the trial and no such evidence appeared. If Zimmerman had been a cop he would never have gone to trial, or arrested. There was also blood on Zimmerman's gun, didn't mean jack in court.

I don't care if Brown raped Wilson, the moment Brown surrendered it was unjustified to shoot him any further.

Your assumption is he was surrendering....not proven as fact, yet.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Your assumption is he was surrendering....not proven as fact, yet.

It is not proven he did not... But if the witnesses are correct, then he did.

 

[The Truth]

I guess these eyewitnesses are just blind cop haters. Amazing how some statists will deny the words of eyewitnesses because their goal is to protect LE. See how that argument works both ways?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/

Seems like a couple of genuinely concerned witnesses to me. Who knows, maybe they are lying through their teeth about what they saw...

 

[WalkingWolf]

I guess these eyewitnesses are just blind cop haters. Amazing how some statists will deny the words of eyewitnesses because their goal is to protect LE. See how that argument works both ways?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/

Seems like a couple of genuinely concerned witnesses to me. Who knows, maybe they are lying through their teeth about what they saw...

They didn't understand that Brown wanted to be shot...(again heavy sarcasm)

 

[Redbaron007]

It is not proven he did not... But if the witnesses are correct, then he did.

Once again.......assumptions made as a result of the reporting through media outlets.

 

[wrightme]

That's a weak claim to make, and does nothing to support any argument based on evidence in the case. That is called ad hominem. It might not be fallacious, that is for you to prove, but that doesn't make it a strong argument.

Sure! This has nothing to do with the fact that Brown died X number of feet away from the cruiser, witnesses claim he ran, then turned around and surrendered with his hands raised - and physical evidence does not unequivocally refute these claims - and Brown was unarmed. You're right, everyone that wants Wilson to be prosecuted is just ignorant, blind cop haters.

No, just no.

It isn't about death, it is about justification for the use of deadly force. His death was a result of the use of deadly force.



I have nothing to prove. The statements of the PD and Wilson show the rationale for the use of deadly force. The physical evidence supports the statements of the PD and Wilson. Whether death is justified or not, is irrelevant, unless a person has some reason to believe this was a case of 'street justice.' Those who think that, have the burden of proof.

As for 'You're right, everyone that wants Wilson to be prosecuted is just ignorant, blind cop haters,' where have I said or implied that?

 

[The Truth]

Once again.......assumptions made as a result of the reporting through media outlets.

Where is the assumption? In my opinion YOU are assuming that witnesses' visceral reaction is totally ingenuine based on the fact that media reported it.

That makes absolutely no sense. You're denying actual video, in real time, of witnesses' reactions who were standing 50 feetaway from the shooting! ?!?!?!?! :banghead:

 

[Redbaron007]

I guess these eyewitnesses are just blind cop haters. Amazing how some statists will deny the words of eyewitnesses because their goal is to protect LE. See how that argument works both ways?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/

Seems like a couple of genuinely concerned witnesses to me. Who knows, maybe they are lying through their teeth about what they saw...

So considering a person innocent until proven guilty is a goal to protect LE? Come on....you can do better than that. :lol:

So far, the media reports are all over the place of different witnesses accounts......to date, we have seen no official statement, in totality, for a witness.

I'm anxious to see the facts.....if Wilson is guilty....he's guilty; if he isn't, then he isn't. Media reports of what a witness said, is at best skeptical......for either side.

 

[Redbaron007]

Where is the assumption? In my opinion YOU are assuming that witnesses' visceral reaction is totally ingenuine based on the fact that media reported it.

That makes absolutely no sense. You're denying actual video, in real time, of witnesses' reactions who were standing 50 feetaway from the shooting! ?!?!?!?! :banghead:

Not denying anything......however, not believing everything either.

 

[Redbaron007]

They didn't understand that Brown wanted to be shot...(again heavy sarcasm)

LOL!!! :lol:

 

[Maverick9]

In all these recent cases, the key factor, much like that in a justified LAC shooting is DID the officer(s) have a CHOICE? Could they have refrained from deadly force? Could they have solved it in another way? Were any of the officers in GRAVE danger in the extreme?

In all of these cases, yes even this one, the "victim/Perp" was not armed with a deadly weapon and/or not posing a threat of death or serious bodily injury to anyone, to any cop, to any other bystander.

I do NOT want my cops shooting unarmed people, I don't care WHAT the circumstances are. If you're so SCARED that you have to empty your service weapon into an unarmed person, you need to find a different job.

ETA: or find yourself OFF the force and maybe indicted for manslaughter. It's the only way to stop this unnecessary killing. COPS are NOT supposed to be judge, jury and EXECUTIONER. It's their JOB to bring in a lawbreaker for TRIAL. The sooner we take away their firearms and just issue tasers and a PR-24, the better.

 

[The Truth]

It isn't about death, it is about justification for the use of deadly force. His death was a result of the use of deadly force.

The point is, the physical evidence presented proves that the kill shot was one of the last shots taken, and on top of witnesses claims that Brown had his hands up.

Even if the use of deadly force was justified towards the beginning of the encounter, that doesn't mean it is warranted after the fact in the case of a surrender. There is clear evidence that there were shots fired, a break, and more shots fired. This is very simple to understand.

I have nothing to prove. The statements of the PD and Wilson show the rationale for the use of deadly force.

What the PD says is irrelevant. Cite to Wilson's statements?

The physical evidence supports the statements of the PD and Wilson.

Another pointless argument to make. Also false.

Whether death is justified or not, is irrelevant, unless a person has some reason to believe this was a case of 'street justice.' Those who think that, have the burden of proof.

Your statements are very unorganized and difficult to understand. This is another non-sequitur. You're good at those.

As for 'You're right, everyone that wants Wilson to be prosecuted is just ignorant, blind cop haters,' where have I said or implied that?

It isn't about whether death was justified or not, that is simply how those against the PD want it looked at.

 

[The Truth]

So considering a person innocent until proven guilty is a goal to protect LE? Come on....you can do better than that. :lol:

This is the most hypocritical BS statement you've made yet. Innocent until proven guilty...like Mike Brown, right? GTFOH

So far, the media reports are all over the place of different witnesses accounts......to date, we have seen no official statement, in totality, for a witness.

Did you even watch the video or read that report? I can't have a meaningful conversation with someone who refuses to believe what is right in front of them.

I'm anxious to see the facts.....if Wilson is guilty....he's guilty; if he isn't, then he isn't. Media reports of what a witness said, is at best skeptical......for either side.

Video of witnesses' reactions =/= "media reports of what a witness said." You're just twisting words to improve your biased argument at this point.

 

[Redbaron007]

This is the most hypocritical BS statement you've made yet. Innocent until proven guilty...like Mike Brown, right? GTFOH



Did you even watch the video or read that report? I can't have a meaningful conversation with someone who refuses to believe what is right in front of them.



Video of witnesses' reactions =/= "media reports of what a witness said." You're just twisting words to improve your biased argument at this point.

WOW....you think innocent until proven guilty is BS.....I had faith in you....but maybe not now. As for Mike Brown, is he under any GJ indictment? It's tragic he is deceased. Convicting the man who took his life based upon media stories is insane. Your jaded view is not allowing you to be reasonable.

As you will look back, I have said I'm not convicting either person until FACTS have been released....then if Wilson is guilty...by all means he is guilty. And yes, I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you; but your mindset of guilty....because he is a LE, that my friend is not reasonable. That's wearing the tin foil hat a little tooo tight.

Please post your official statements/videos....not the ones through CNN/FOX/MSNBC/YouTube; actually documented statements and vetted videos (unedited). If you have access to those the GJ got see, that would be helpful too. Also, what about the ones the prosecutor has in his possession?

 

[wrightme]

The point is, the physical evidence presented proves that the kill shot was one of the last shots taken, and on top of witnesses claims that Brown had his hands up.

Witness claims do not mean it is so. If Brown was still seen as a threat by Wilson when the last shots were taken, they are still justified.

Even if the use of deadly force was justified towards the beginning of the encounter, that doesn't mean it is warranted after the fact in the case of a surrender. There is clear evidence that there were shots fired, a break, and more shots fired. This is very simple to understand.

What 'clear evidence' do you present? If he did in fact indicate unquestioning surrender, deadly force is no longer needed or authorized. That is very likely the reason it is at a grand jury right now.

What the PD says is irrelevant. Cite to Wilson's statements?

Thought you were following the case.

 

[The Truth]

WOW....you think innocent until proven guilty is BS.....I had faith in you....but maybe not now. As for Mike Brown, is he under any GJ indictment? It's tragic he is deceased. Convicting the man who took his life based upon media stories is insane. Your jaded view is not allowing you to be reasonable.

I'm saying 'innocent until proven guilty is BS?' What are you even talking about? LEARN TO READ PLEASE. You're a hypocrite because you will fight tooth and nail to make sure the cop is innocent until proven guilty, yet you assume Brown is guilty and lethal force is justified - and unless you were there, you're basing your opinion on media reports as well. Unless you talked to the chief yourself, or obtained a statement from the PD personally, you got your info from the media. WAKE UP.

No one is "convicting" anyone based on media reports. Some people want charges filed based on the facts given on the case. Again, you are discrediting everything you do not believe simply because "the media reported it." Asinine argument at best. You are the unreasonable one here.

As you will look back, I have said I'm not convicting either person until FACTS have been released....then if Wilson is guilty...by all means he is guilty. And yes, I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you; but your mindset of guilty....because he is a LE, that my friend is not reasonable. That's wearing the tin foil hat a little tooo tight.

Where's your proof that I think Wilson is guilty simply because he is LE? Oh, you're pulling more stuff out of your hind parts and trying to use fallacy ad hominem to discredit my POV? What else is new.

Please post your official statements/videos....not the ones through CNN/FOX/MSNBC/YouTube; actually documented statements and vetted videos (unedited). If you have access to those the GJ got see, that would be helpful too. Also, what about the ones the prosecutor has in his possession?

Again, you are ignoring what is right in front of you. Hundreds of media outlets have released video and statements of the construction workers who witnessed, from 50 feet away, the shooting of Mike Brown.

 

[WalkingWolf]

If innocent until proven guilty means no charges or trial then we must empty our jails. Nobody is asking that he be executed, they are asking for their and his day in court. It is up to the court and jury to decide if he is guilty, but as in almost every incident nobody is ever tried, citizens will be killed without any ramifications.

But for some people this is ok, UNTIL it is one of their loved ones. When that happens I guess I will have to take the statists side, because after all they would be innocent until proven guilty and cannot be charged.