Michael Brown unarmed shooting in Ferguson, MO

[The Truth]

Witness claims do not mean it is so. If Brown was still seen as a threat by Wilson when the last shots were taken, they are still justified.

Wrong.

What 'clear evidence' do you present? If he did in fact indicate unquestioning surrender, deadly force is no longer needed or authorized. That is very likely the reason it is at a grand jury right now.

Ya don't say...

Thought you were following the case.

Read the rules dude. Or learn to argue, for that matter. Cite to authority or your statement is BS.

 

[wrightme]

Another pointless argument to make. Also false.

1) Not false.
2) Not pointless.

Your statements are very unorganized and difficult to understand. This is another non-sequitur. You're good at those.

I cannot control how you see the information I present.


You did present that 'death' statement, correct? Why do you key on 'unjustified death?'

 

[wrightme]

Read the rules dude. Or learn to argue, for that matter. Cite to authority or your statement is BS.

Did I claim any rule of law to cite? That is what the rules speak to.

 

[wrightme]

If innocent until proven guilty means no charges or trial then we must empty our jails. Nobody is asking that he be executed, they are asking for their and his day in court. It is up to the court and jury to decide if he is guilty, but as in almost every incident nobody is ever tried, citizens will be killed without any ramifications.
But for some people this is ok, UNTIL it is one of their loved ones. When that happens I guess I will have to take the statists side, because after all they would be innocent until proven guilty and cannot be charged.

It isn't up to the citizens whether it even gets to court, it is up to the justice system. At present, the citizens ARE being presented the evidence and will determine whether charges are recommended or not, via the grand jury.



Specifically, unless there is actually evidence of a crime, it is not proper for it to be in a courtroom.

 

[The Truth]

Did I claim any rule of law to cite? That is what the rules speak to.

Based on your continued argument against providing proof of your claim, your claim is deemed Grade A, Top Quality BULL POOP and should be stricken from the thread, as it is not fact.

 

[wrightme]

This is the most hypocritical BS statement you've made yet. Innocent until proven guilty...like Mike Brown, right?

What does whether Mike Brown is guilty or not have to do with it?

 

[The Truth]

It isn't up to the citizens whether it even gets to court, it is up to the justice system. At present, the citizens ARE being presented the evidence and will determine whether charges are recommended or not, via the grand jury.



Specifically, unless there is actually evidence of a crime, it is not proper for it to be in a courtroom.

Grand Juries are unfair and totally pointless. There is no defense in a GJ case, only the prosecutor and what he deems necessary to divulge.

 

[wrightme]

Based on your continued argument against providing proof of your claim, your claim is deemed Grade A, Top Quality BULL POOP and should be stricken from the thread, as it is not fact.

Are you going to present the 'clear evidence' you mentioned then?

The point is, the physical evidence presented proves that the kill shot was one of the last shots taken, and on top of witnesses claims that Brown had his hands up.

Even if the use of deadly force was justified towards the beginning of the encounter, that doesn't mean it is warranted after the fact in the case of a surrender. There is clear evidence that there were shots fired, a break, and more shots fired. This is very simple to understand.

 

[marshaul]

Grand Juries are unfair and totally pointless. There is no defense in a GJ case, only the prosecutor and what he deems necessary to divulge.

Grand Juries were supposed to be independent bodies who would independently investigate private criminal complaints and issue indictments where appropriate.

Public prosecution morphed from a scheme to represent those unable to represent themselves (murder victims with no kin etc) into a twisted implement of state action.

 

[The Truth]

Are you going to present the 'clear evidence' you mentioned then?

Here ya go. Verified too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/michael-brown-shooting-audio_n_5733216.html

Nice attempt at a diversion though.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Grand Juries were supposed to be independent bodies who would independently investigate private criminal complaints and issue indictments where appropriate.

Public prosecution morphed from a scheme to represent those unable to represent themselves (murder victims with no kin etc) into a twisted implement of state action.

In this present day the prosecutor deems the outcome of the grand jury before it is even seated. If the prosecutor wants and indictment, he gets it, if he wants a police officer cleared, they get cleared.

The feds could correct some of this by just cutting the purse strings to counties and states that refuse to prosecute police misconduct. They did this for seat belts and the states bent over backwards to pass seat belt laws.

But Obama and congress do not want to anger the statists by such an act.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

That's actually an interesting angle I havent seen before. Good point.

And my intent wasn't to champion any success, was just to merely show the system does work on occasion. How much is up for debate. But even one case like disproves the naysayers that tote the "tyrants in black robes" or that the judicial branch is rigged and just does what corrupt police want, etc.

There are child molestors who are nice to children they haven't molested, doesn't make them not child molestors.....

As if anyone has taken the absolutist stance that ALL cops/judges/politicians are completely, totally, 100% corrupt.

The system is corrupt, as are many of its agents. Those who try to do the right thing, are faced with the Regina Tasca and Adam Basford treatment.

But hey, this one time, everything worked out yall. Stop criticizing an unjust monopoly of unaccountable force!!! /s

+1

Grand Juries were supposed to be independent bodies who would independently investigate private criminal complaints and issue indictments where appropriate.

Public prosecution morphed from a scheme to represent those unable to represent themselves (murder victims with no kin etc) into a twisted implement of state action.

+1 The good grand juries had no prosecutorial involvement at all and one of their main jobs were to indict public employees and politicians who otherwise wouldn't indict themselves.

I like the old Pennsylvania style, there were two elected grand jury officials who picked by lot a jury who would serve a term of a certain length to rule a bill of true or ignoramus on indictments brought to them by civilians or by the state.

 

[The Truth]

Here ya go, wrightme, I will do something I probably shouldn't do: cite Wilson's statements for you. The reason I'm doing so is because you REFUSE to do so because you know it does nothing to strengthen the argument for deadly force after the initial contact. It's pretty clear when you are replying almost immediately, providing cites for various other claims in other threads without question, but when asked to provide a cite for this claim you refuse.

Also, this came out two days ago and something tells me you weren't even aware before making your initial statement since if you were aware of the new reports you likely would have posted them. This is the first official public release of this info. It was released Friday 10/17.

"Wilson’s statement also fails to explain why he shot Brown several times after he got out of his car."

http://www.newsweek.com/officer-dar...ichael-brown-shooting-report-278364?piano_t=1

It fails to explain the second burst of shots because there is no explanation. Lethal force after the initial contact is not justified in my opinion, and Wilson's statements support my claim, because he gives no explanation.

I don't expect any justice though. I'm pretty cynical.

 

[marshaul]

There are child molestors who are nice to children they haven't molested, doesn't make them not child molestors.....

Murderers don't have to kill everyone to still be murderers. In fact, one person is enough.

 

[wrightme]

Here ya go. Verified too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/michael-brown-shooting-audio_n_5733216.html

Nice attempt at a diversion though.

No attempted diversion, simply a request for the reference you claimed.

Now, what do you make of that, given your comment about it?

It isn't about death, it is about justification for the use of deadly force. His death was a result of the use of deadly force.

The point is, the physical evidence presented proves that the kill shot was one of the last shots taken, and on top of witnesses claims that Brown had his hands up.

Even if the use of deadly force was justified towards the beginning of the encounter, that doesn't mean it is warranted after the fact in the case of a surrender. There is clear evidence that there were shots fired, a break, and more shots fired. This is very simple to understand.

 

[wrightme]

Grand Juries are unfair and totally pointless. There is no defense in a GJ case, only the prosecutor and what he deems necessary to divulge.

As it is not a trial, there is no need for a defense.

 

[wrightme]

Here ya go, wrightme, I will do something I probably shouldn't do: cite Wilson's statements for you. The reason I'm doing so is because you REFUSE to do so because you know it does nothing to strengthen the argument for deadly force after the initial contact. It's pretty clear when you are replying almost immediately, providing cites for various other claims in other threads without question, but when asked to provide a cite for this claim you refuse.

Also, this came out two days ago and something tells me you weren't even aware before making your initial statement since if you were aware of the new reports you likely would have posted them. This is the first official public release of this info. It was released Friday 10/17.

"Wilson’s statement also fails to explain why he shot Brown several times after he got out of his car."

http://www.newsweek.com/officer-dar...ichael-brown-shooting-report-278364?piano_t=1

It fails to explain the second burst of shots because there is no explanation. Lethal force after the initial contact is not justified in my opinion, and Wilson's statements support my claim, because he gives no explanation.

I don't expect any justice though. I'm pretty cynical.

You are obviously accepting the witness statements that you agree with, unquestioningly, and refusing to accept contrary opinions or statements.

A lack of an explanation does not explain the lack. To speculate, if Brown was still advancing and showing to be a threat, the justification for the use of deadly force is still extant.



(couldn't very well add links while driving....)

 

[The Truth]

In my opinion, it's reasonable to believe that Wilson was within his right to self defense during the first contact, and although it is not clear whether lethal force was necessary, I am inclined to accept the use of lethal force during that first contact. If Brown was killed with the first few shots and never ran or had his hands up, there really is no argument against the force used whether it was truly warranted or not.

It's after Brown breaks away and runs that I believe the crime was committed by Wilson. Witness accounts that at least one shot was fired with Brown's back turned, physical evidence that at least supports the notion, and witness accounts that Brown ran and then had his hands up all lead me to believe that the force was excessive after the initial contact.

Watch this unarmed man's reaction to being shot. He makes no movement whatsoever in an aggressive way and it shot multiple times, then after the feeling of being shot multiple times and fearing death, he puts his hands up in surrender and turns his back, and is subsequently dispatched like a dog in the street. I'm willing to bet that Brown surrendered in a similar fashion after he realized he was being systematically shot to death.

[video=youtube;kY5Z_OFn5hs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5Z_OFn5hs[/video]

 

[Redbaron007]

I'm saying 'innocent until proven guilty is BS?' What are you even talking about? LEARN TO READ PLEASE. You're a hypocrite because you will fight tooth and nail to make sure the cop is innocent until proven guilty, yet you assume Brown is guilty and lethal force is justified - and unless you were there, you're basing your opinion on media reports as well. Unless you talked to the chief yourself, or obtained a statement from the PD personally, you got your info from the media. WAKE UP.

No one is "convicting" anyone based on media reports. Some people want charges filed based on the facts given on the case. Again, you are discrediting everything you do not believe simply because "the media reported it." Asinine argument at best. You are the unreasonable one here.



Where's your proof that I think Wilson is guilty simply because he is LE? Oh, you're pulling more stuff out of your hind parts and trying to use fallacy ad hominem to discredit my POV? What else is new.



Again, you are ignoring what is right in front of you. Hundreds of media outlets have released video and statements of the construction workers who witnessed, from 50 feet away, the shooting of Mike Brown.

You may want to look at past 618...that's also the one I quoted when you made the statement about Innocent until proven guilty was BS.

Please refer back to several posts earlier. I have stated several times, Wilson is innocent until proven guilty. There is no verifiable evidence, that hasn't been potentially tainted by the media outlets, that provide facts....they provide possible evidence, but it has to be filtered and taken with a grain of salt. All video/testimonies I've heard about are after the fact....not during. There have been reports that give credence to both sides....funny the videos are all after the incident.

Mike Brown is not being investigated by the prosecuting attorney......I have never said he was responsible for his death....although, that'll come out to a certain extent when Wilson is charged/convicted or no bill/acquitted.

And by all means, please accept my humble apology for for lumping in with WW. That was my mistake.

 

[The Truth]

As it is not a trial, there is no need for a defense.

It's a preliminary hearing, or "official proceeding." You know what I'm trying to say, unless you don't know how GJs work.