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It never ceases to amaze me... Take me out to the ball game...

B

Bikenut

Guest
If no one confronts trolls then newcomers, and even some weathered veterans, will end up assimilating some of the troll's misinformation.

Just as it is necessary to open carry in order to counter the anti gun message in real life it is also necessary to confront lies and deceptions from anti gun posters and misinformation from posters who just aren't aware of the facts with the truth on forums in order to counter the anti gun message online.

Do we stop OCing because there are folks in real life that don't like it? Of course not. So why would anyone want to stop posting/frequenting a forum just because there are trolls who don't like OC posts online?

If we quit... they win.
 
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J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
How in the world did y'all turn a different opinion with a knack for being wordy into a troll? That's his take on the law (or lack therof). Sure, you may disagree, that's ok. But seeing his contributions in utah I think it's safe to say charles' net contribution has been for the good of the 2nd amendment here in utah.

I'm sick of ad hominem all across the board here on ALL parties, regardless of who "starts" it.

Debate the issues not the people we imagine are behind the computer screen, ya?

If the shoe fits...
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
how in the world did y'all turn a different opinion with a knack for being wordy into a troll? That's his take on the law (or lack therof). Sure, you may disagree, that's ok. But seeing his contributions in utah i think it's safe to say charles' net contribution has been for the good of the 2nd amendment here in utah.

I'm sick of ad hominem all across the board here on all parties, regardless of who "starts" it.

Debate the issues not the people we imagine are behind the computer screen, ya?

If the shoe fits...
amen +100*2
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
If no one confronts trolls then newcomers, and even some weathered veterans, will end up assimilating some of the troll's misinformation.

Exactly. It is important that newcomers not get the mistaken idea that support for OC or RKBA requires them to also adhere to an particular view of property rights, discrimination laws, immigration, taxes, religion, UFOs, or anything else.

A bleeding heart, pinko-commie liberal might well choose to support RKBA and OC on any number of liberal grounds. And we ought to welcome him and his support for RKBA/OC regardless of any disagreement we have with him on any or even every other social and political issue. If he can be polite enough to disagree on those without being disagreeable, or even to leave those issues unspoken, we should do likewise.

Ditto for the radical right, religious nut conservative who supports RKBA and OC.

Also for the otherwise fence sitting, splinter gathering middle-of-the roader.

We should welcome with open arms those who prefer to CC, as well as those who don't carry but just like to collect, hunt, target shoot, or engineer/build guns so long as they are not hostile to our RKBA and OC.

It is well past time for a few loudmouthed, ill-behaved, and insecure libertarians and anarchists to stop acting like a grand Inquisitor rooting out false doctrines and heretics anytime a solid supporter of OC and RKBA disagrees with some social or political view based on the religion of "objectivistism".

I appreciate j_dazzle's most recent post that is both sage and kind. And I apologize to him, the other forum members, and the mods for the part I play in perpetuating off topic disagreements.

But I'm here to discuss OC, RKBA, self-defense, and the laws and social acceptance related thereto. I'm not going to take kindly to being attacked for not being a libertarian or anarchist, for being a Christian, nor otherwise having a different opinion on any topic outside RKBA/OC.

Charles
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Charles, your protestations ring hollow to my ears. On the one hand, this forum has indeed welcomed lefty members in the past (so long as they were honest-to-goodness OCers, anyway). So there's that.

On the other hand, you insinuate that the discord you constantly sow is in fact the result of certain members, in effect, picking on you because you "aren't libertarian enough" (because, of course, there's no way they could simply find your stated positions -- forgetting your mendacity and hypocrisy -- consistently objectionable). But, not for the first time, in this thread the first mention of libertarianism is by yourself. To wit:

I'm just not libertarian enough to believe a business should be permitted to chain their fire doors shut or disable fire sprinkler systems.

All the adults in the room can see what you're doing here. (For starters, this remark of yours is a complete non-sequitur.) First, you set the trap with a remark, seemingly made in passing, but yet which contains an intentionally inflammatory straw man. Then, when members remind you that this crap about "chaining doors" has nothing to do with libertarianism anyway, you decide the trap tripped, and immediately play victim, pretending that you are the blameless recipient of malice directed at you for no reason other than your failure to go along with the crowd. (You rebel, you.) In your mind, any shift in the discussion towards "libertarianism" lends credence to your little act, regardless of whether you initiated that shift.

Uh huh. Well, your sycophant buys it, anyway. :lol:
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
A liberal with a gun, OC or CC, is just as much a threat to the 2A as is the rabid anti-gun liberal. How a citizen votes defines their dedication to liberty.

A vote for a anti-gun liberal is a vote against liberty, a vote for a pro-gun liberal is a vote against liberty.

In summary, laws that make unlawful the exclusion of certain citizens from private property open to the public (businesses) are a direct result of the fact that some folks can't peel off their skin color, or lock their gender, in their vehicle, not so with your pistol. Respect for private property rights is the foundation of our society.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Originally Posted by Bikenut
If no one confronts trolls then newcomers, and even some weathered veterans, will end up assimilating some of the troll's misinformation.

Exactly. It is important that newcomers not get the mistaken idea that support for OC or RKBA requires them to also adhere to an particular view of property rights, discrimination laws, immigration, taxes, religion, UFOs, or anything else.

A bleeding heart, pinko-commie liberal might well choose to support RKBA and OC on any number of liberal grounds. And we ought to welcome him and his support for RKBA/OC regardless of any disagreement we have with him on any or even every other social and political issue. If he can be polite enough to disagree on those without being disagreeable, or even to leave those issues unspoken, we should do likewise.

-snip-

It is well past time for a few loudmouthed, ill-behaved, and insecure libertarians and anarchists to stop acting like a grand Inquisitor rooting out false doctrines and heretics anytime a solid supporter of OC and RKBA disagrees with some social or political view based on the religion of "objectivistism".

I appreciate j_dazzle's most recent post that is both sage and kind. And I apologize to him, the other forum members, and the mods for the part I play in perpetuating off topic disagreements.

-snip-

Charles
Pointing out to folks, especially newcomers, that demanding the right to bear arms be respected while intentionally disrespecting the property owner's property right to ban guns on/in his/her property by ... sneaking... in a gun because doing business there is convenient or saves a few bucks is hypocritical isn't requiring anyone do anything.... it is pointing out that such behavior is hypocritical.

About the portion of your post I put in bold for emphasis:

I do think it is interesting to see a call for polite disagreement and an impolite insulting statement towards others that perpetuates off topic disagreements followed by an apology for....... perpetuating off topic disagreements.... all in the same post.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Charles, your protestations ring hollow to my ears. On the one hand, this forum has indeed welcomed lefty members in the past (so long as they were honest-to-goodness OCers, anyway). So there's that.

On the other hand, you insinuate that the discord you constantly sow is in fact the result of certain members, in effect, picking on you because you "aren't libertarian enough" (because, of course, there's no way they could simply find your stated positions -- forgetting your mendacity and hypocrisy -- consistently objectionable). But, not for the first time, in this thread the first mention of libertarianism is by yourself. To wit:



All the adults in the room can see what you're doing here. (For starters, this remark of yours is a complete non-sequitur.) First, you set the trap with a remark, seemingly made in passing, but yet which contains an intentionally inflammatory straw man. Then, when members remind you that this crap about "chaining doors" has nothing to do with libertarianism anyway, you decide the trap tripped, and immediately play victim, pretending that you are the blameless recipient of malice directed at you for no reason other than your failure to go along with the crowd. (You rebel, you.) In your mind, any shift in the discussion towards "libertarianism" lends credence to your little act, regardless of whether you initiated that shift.

Uh huh. Well, your sycophant buys it, anyway. :lol:

+1000

Why is it many here who are not libertarian/anarchist are able to have great discussions with with said libertarian/anarchist, yet he is not?
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Exactly. It is important that newcomers not get the mistaken idea that support for OC or RKBA requires them to also adhere to an particular view of property rights, discrimination laws, immigration, taxes, religion, UFOs, or anything else.

A bleeding heart, pinko-commie liberal might well choose to support RKBA and OC on any number of liberal grounds. And we ought to welcome him and his support for RKBA/OC regardless of any disagreement we have with him on any or even every other social and political issue. If he can be polite enough to disagree on those without being disagreeable, or even to leave those issues unspoken, we should do likewise.

Ditto for the radical right, religious nut conservative who supports RKBA and OC.

Also for the otherwise fence sitting, splinter gathering middle-of-the roader.

We should welcome with open arms those who prefer to CC, as well as those who don't carry but just like to collect, hunt, target shoot, or engineer/build guns so long as they are not hostile to our RKBA and OC.

It is well past time for a few loudmouthed, ill-behaved, and insecure libertarians and anarchists to stop acting like a grand Inquisitor rooting out false doctrines and heretics anytime a solid supporter of OC and RKBA disagrees with some social or political view based on the religion of "objectivistism".

I appreciate j_dazzle's most recent post that is both sage and kind. And I apologize to him, the other forum members, and the mods for the part I play in perpetuating off topic disagreements.

But I'm here to discuss OC, RKBA, self-defense, and the laws and social acceptance related thereto. I'm not going to take kindly to being attacked for not being a libertarian or anarchist, for being a Christian, nor otherwise having a different opinion on any topic outside RKBA/OC.

Charles

piper, you are? then why on God's green earth do you take every one of your posts, like this one, where you comment on bikenut's post about confronting troll's and their misinformation into a fully blown, stand on your soapbox & start a tirade on unbelievable topics such as this one:

quote:
1. property rights, discrimination laws, immigration, taxes, religion, UFOs, or anything else.
2. ...bleeding heart, pinko-commie liberal.... we ought to welcome him and his support for RKBA/OC regardless of any disagreement we have with him on any or even every other social and political issue.
3. ...radical right, religious nut conservative who supports RKBA and OC.
4. ...fence sitting, splinter gathering middle-of-the roader.
5. ...should welcome with open arms those who prefer to CC, as well as those who don't carry but just like to collect, hunt, target shoot, or engineer/build guns so long as they are not hostile to our RKBA and OC.
6. ...few loudmouthed, ill-behaved, and insecure libertarians and anarchists to stop acting like a grand Inquisitor rooting out false doctrines and heretics anytime a solid supporter of OC and RKBA disagrees with some social or political view based on the religion of "objectivistism" (my comment...WOW just flat out WOW!)
7. I'm not going to take kindly to being attacked for not being a libertarian or anarchist, for being a Christian, nor otherwise having a different opinion on any topic outside RKBA/OC.
unquote

piper, as has been pointed out, someone challenges you, real or perceived, you feel attacked and immediately jump to becoming the name calling grand inquisitor you mention in number 6.

piper, look what a rant you have just posted from a very very simple post regarding trolls ~ and yet other members have...never mind, shaking my head is disbelief...

and no i have not attacked you get over yourself!!

ipse
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Pointing out to folks, especially newcomers, that demanding the right to bear arms be respected while intentionally disrespecting the property owner's property right to ban guns on/in his/her property by ... sneaking... in a gun because doing business there is convenient or saves a few bucks is hypocritical isn't requiring anyone do anything.... it is pointing out that such behavior is hypocritical.
snipppp

here here...

ipse
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Charles, your protestations ring hollow to my ears.

Considering the absolute vile sewer you threw my way last time you promised to remove yourself from any forum that allowed me to be a member, I suspect anything with name attached has the same effect on you.

your .... hypocrisy

Ah yes, "hypocrisy". The objectivists' insult of choice; their version of "bigotry."


All the adults in the room can see what you're doing here.

And so anyone who doesn't agree with you, is, by implication something other than an adult? I see. No insults from you here.

"chaining doors" has nothing to do with libertarianism anyway,

It has everything to do with the libertarian/anarchist claims that we must have perfect respect for the "absolute" right to control private property.

If you can tell me the logical, rational, "objective" reason to demand respect for a private business policy banning guns while not respecting that same business owner's desire to reduce theft by locking fire doors, I may have to rethink. Until then, you are simply trying to distance yourself and your social/political views from the logical conclusion that points out the silliness of anyone demanding perfect respect for some "absolute" right to control property.

Now, it is clear that you have no desire to engage me in any real discussion, and certainly not relative to the purpose of this forum. So please show enough integrity to live up to your multiple promises to ignore me rather than dragging this thread and forum ever more off topic with continued claims that I'm a hypocrite or otherwise horrible human being, or even with endless efforts to claim that one cannot be a true supporter of RKBA/OC without also agreeing with your personal views of the universe.

Good day.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Pointing out to folks, especially newcomers, that demanding the right to bear arms be respected while intentionally disrespecting the property owner's property right to ban guns on/in his/her property by ... sneaking... in a gun because doing business there is convenient or saves a few bucks is hypocritical

In your view it is hypocritical. And they way you and others throw around that word, it has become little more than the pedestrian insult that means, "I disagree with you and don't like you." It is a poisoning of the well like "bigot" whose intend and common effect is to shut down rational discussion and silence disagreement.

Maybe, some of us view possession of a gun less as a right to bear arms and more as a right to defend life and limb. Society has long since decided that life and limb trump property rights.

You don't get to use deadly force to defend mere property. You don't get to chain fire doors shut to reduce theft. You don't get to cut corners on building safety codes, or mine safety, or stuff too many bodies into your facility in an effort to increase profits, nor even just to exercise some "right" to control property.

Life and limb trump property.

If you wish to advocate for RKBA/OC while ALSO advocating for the kind of "absolute" control over private property that permits racial, sexual, or other similar discrimination such is your choice. Ditto if you wish to defend some supposed right for property owners to ignore safety codes.

But others of us have just as much right to advocate for RKBA/OC while simultaneously advocating for current anti-discrimination laws to be expanded to include the lawful possession of a firearm.

And our liberal associate has every right to support RKBA/OC while also supporting high taxes for a strong social safety net.

Calling any of us hypocrites is insulting and needlessly provocative and divisive on a board dedicated to OC/RKBA. So long as we are solid on RKBA/OC, you have no business driving wedges or lobbing insults just because we don't subscribe to your non-RKBA/OC political/social positions.

That you fail to understand this, that you cannot comprehend nor concede that one can be every bit as strong on OC/RKBA as you are while being diametrically opposed to you on any number of non-OC/RKBA issues is the core of your problem in trying to be civil in discussions and the inevitable disagreements.

Simply put, I reject some of your political/social views and the "principles" upon which you've chosen to build them (or at least your particular interpretation and application of those principles).

I don't have to conform your view of property rights, or the proper social order, nor taxes, drugs, immigration, nor anything else. All of those things are off topic on this forum.

Tell me that you've chosen to respect discriminatory private policies regarding guns in businesses because of your personal religious/moral/social/political views and I can respect your position. But you cross the line when you tell me that I must adopt your position on such policies because your views on other issues are superior to mine.

YOU would consider yourself a hypocrite for violating a no gun policy while advocating for RKBA.

I do not consider myself a hypocrite for doing the same thing because I simply do not recognize property rights the same way you do.

Let it go and either learn how to converse civilly with those who don't agree with you fully, or learn to ignore me.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
A liberal with a gun, OC or CC, is just as much a threat to the 2A as is the rabid anti-gun liberal. How a citizen votes defines their dedication to liberty.

A vote for a anti-gun liberal is a vote against liberty, a vote for a pro-gun liberal is a vote against liberty.

And many would point out that there is no shortage of rapid anti-gun conservatives.

We could then debate whether voting for the perfect RKBA candidate who can't get elected is actually better for or worse than voting for the decent but imperfect candidate who can win. Or do we vote pure and help throw the election to the rapid anti-gun candidate?

These are very difficult and deeply personal questions.

But bottom line, I'm not about to say a bleeding heart liberal can't be solid on RKBA and OC. And if there are those who are solid on RKBA/OC who happen to be liberal, democrats, or otherwise hold typical left-wing views on virtually every issue other than guns and self-defense, I welcome him and his help in advancing RKBA even if he and I will be on opposite sides of the table on every other issue.

In summary, laws that make unlawful the exclusion of certain citizens from private property open to the public (businesses) are a direct result of the fact that some folks can't peel off their skin color, or lock their gender, in their vehicle, not so with your pistol.

You are simply finding palatable excuses for why current anti-discrimination laws don't offend you, but why you don't care to support adding lawful possession of guns to the list. People can and do change religion or political affiliation every day. We don't allow discrimination based on religious or political affiliation.

Nobody has to broadcast his sexual orientation, nor hold hands with or otherwise show affection toward his partner/lover/spouse while in another's business. A business owner can't know a customer or employee's sexual orientation unless the person makes it known in some way. But a growing number of jurisdictions don't permit discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Besides which, if we must have perfect respect for an "absolute" right to control property, why not legally permit racial or sexual discrimination? Why should peaceful non-association even for bigoted reasons be illegal under such a system?

There is no ironclad, logical reason that current discrimination laws are acceptable, but adding lawful possession of a gun would be offensive. There are only personal, emotional, "religious" reasons.

And I'm fine with that. Just be honest with what the reasons are. Don't try to claim some perfect adherence to some "objective" standard when there is no such objective standard once you concede that current anti-discrimination laws are acceptable.


Respect for private property rights is the foundation of our society.

I don't think so.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men"

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I don't see "respect for private property rights" as being among the foundational statements in either the DoI or the Constitution. Certainly, respect for property right is one important aspect of our society. But respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, for justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and general welfare are at least as important.

And society has decided that refusing goods, services, or employment to unpopular minorities runs counter to these goals.

In those jurisdictions where private bans on guns carries force of law, we should respect the law and the social order thus established until such time as we can peacefully and legally effect change.

In those jurisdictions where private bans on guns do not enjoy the backing of law, it is a personal decision how to respond to such bigoted and discriminatory practices. Sometimes, ignoring them is the proper course, I believe.

l_lunch-counter.jpg


Charles
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
-snip-

Let it go and either learn how to converse civilly with those who don't agree with you fully, or learn to ignore me.

Charles
I would say the same to you Charles.

Besides.. people only need to go back and read your own posts that contain what you hope are cleverly word smithed insults and condescension (plus some outright insults) towards anyone who disagrees with you or who does not show the degree of respect that you think you deserve to understand you are not interested in conversing civilly.

Regardless....

Originally Posted by Bikenut

-snip-demanding the right to bear arms be respected while intentionally disrespecting the property owner's property right to ban guns on/in his/her property by ... sneaking... in a gun because doing business there is convenient or saves a few bucks is hypocritical isn't requiring anyone do anything.... it is pointing out that such behavior is hypocritical.

And that holds true whether anyone wishes to acknowledge it or not.... or even if it offends someone who sees themselves in it. Oh... and guess what? Those who don't see themselves in it have no need to respond to it... right Charles?

But then there is this:
originally posted by utbagpiper:
But others of us have just as much right to advocate for RKBA/OC while simultaneously advocating for current anti-discrimination laws to be expanded to include the lawful possession of a firearm.
Advocating against the government infringing upon the right to bear arms while advocating for the government to infringe upon the private property right to deny entry.... Hmmmmm.....

But then I haven't been talking about how folks have the right to advocate for or against something... I've been pointing out the hypocrisy in wanting the right to bear arms be respected while disrespecting the property owner's right to ban guns by ... sneaking... in a gun because shopping there is convenient and saves money. AND the blatant hypocrisy of wanting the government to not infringe upon the right to bear arms while also wanting the government to infringe upon property rights.

It is very discouraging to see gun owners/carriers express the perspective of:

"Hooray for the rights I think are important and to hell with the rights that cost me money or cause me inconvenience.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
It is very discouraging to see gun owners/carriers express the perspective of:

"Hooray for the rights I think are important and to hell with the rights that cost me money or cause me inconvenience.

In other words, any gun owner who doesn't view rights exactly the same way you do is going to cause you heartburn because you can't possibly conceive that yours might not be the only valid view of asserted rights other than RKBA/OC.

You've made that very clear repeatedly.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I do not have to agree with a man on abortion, immigration, taxpayer funded welfare, nor environmental policy in order to understand his position, and to recognize he might be operating from a position other than rank hypocrisy, overt evil, or abject ignorance. Give it a try. It is actually fascinating to realize a man can disagree with you on almost everything and yet still be a perfectly decent human being whose company you might even enjoy from time to time; and whose conversation can be far more interesting than that of a man whose views match your own perfectly.

We've made tremendous progress on RKBA and the practical ability to legally carry a gun for self-defense (for those who are so pedantic as to insist upon that clear distinction every time) over the last 20 years in Utah by adhering to a single, simple motto: We are single issue on RKBA. Every other issue doesn't matter when we are advancing RKBA. Period, end of story.

Charles
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
In other words, any gun owner who doesn't view rights exactly the same way you do is going to cause you heartburn because you can't possibly conceive that yours might not be the only valid view of asserted rights other than RKBA/OC.

You've made that very clear repeatedly.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I do not have to agree with a man on abortion, immigration, taxpayer funded welfare, nor environmental policy in order to understand his position, and to recognize he might be operating from a position other than rank hypocrisy, overt evil, or abject ignorance. Give it a try. It is actually fascinating to realize a man can disagree with you on almost everything and yet still be a perfectly decent human being whose company you might even enjoy from time to time; and whose conversation can be far more interesting than that of a man whose views match your own perfectly.

We've made tremendous progress on RKBA and the practical ability to legally carry a gun for self-defense (for those who are so pedantic as to insist upon that clear distinction every time) over the last 20 years in Utah by adhering to a single, simple motto: We are single issue on RKBA. Every other issue doesn't matter when we are advancing RKBA. Period, end of story.

Charles
And you have repeatedly made it clear that you will use many excuses to justify advocating using the government to infringe upon the property rights of others.

And once again you resort to veiled passive aggressive insults with that crack about an educated mind. Well Sir... an honest mind understands that advocating for the right to bear arms not be infringed by the government while also advocating for the government to infringe upon the property rights of others is ... hypocritical.

Let me remind you of your own words Charles....
Originally Posted by utbagpiper
-snip-

Let it go and either learn how to converse civilly with those who don't agree with you fully, or learn to ignore me.

Charles


and the snide remark of

[quote Originally posted by utbagpiper:
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."[/quote]

is not conversing civilly.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
And you have repeatedly made it clear that you will use many excuses to justify advocating using the government to infringe upon the property rights of others.

You keep repeating that it is an infringement of property rights as if property rights (as you understand them) was the goal of this site, or a required point of doctrine for all true supporters of OC/RKBA.

Try to wrap you mind around the proposition that a man can hold vastly different views of what it means to properly respect property rights than you do, and still be every bit as strong on RKBA and OC as you are.

And once again you resort to veiled passive aggressive insults with that crack about an educated mind.

...the snide remark of

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

is not conversing civilly.

Since when is Aristotle "passive aggressive", "insult[ing], a "crack" or a "snide remark", much less uncivil.

Do you disagree with the sentiment regarding the ability to entertain an idea one doesn't agree with? Does it not apply in this case for some reason?

Or are you just looking to take offense even as you continue to emphatically assert that anyone who doesn't hold your same view of property rights, while advancing RKBA, is a hypocrite or worse?

Your view of property rights is entirely valid. Admit that you oppose laws requiring fire escapes or anything else except full disclosure and you can even claim absolute purity to some laise faire philosophy (if such consistency is important to you). If you oppose forcing property owners to accept unwanted guns, but favor subjecting them to health and safety rules, that is also a valid position. And I won't and haven't attacked you for any such position. I have merely defended from attacks and accusations of "hypocrisy" over my position.

This isn't a matter of being "right" or "wrong", but of personal opinions and choices of how best to advance RKBA, what constitutes "proper" respect for private property, etc, for which you seem to have little regard for any that differ from your own. Just give others' opinions and views half the respect you believe they should give to a bigoted anti-gun policy and we'd have nary a beef here.

Charles
 
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