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Are you ready for a gunfight?

What Level Of Shooter Are You?

  • Level 1: Don't shoot.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Level 2: Practice on standard ranges.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Level 3: Attend training classes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Level 4: Match Shooter.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Level 5: Been in gunfights.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

cs9c1

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longwatch wrote:
I think the writer addresses some of those issues in the article. He doesn't claim it's a perfect system and that the possiblity exists that shooters at all levels can have hidden strengths as well as serious weaknesses.

"The fact that someone has been in a gunfight and survived doesn't necessarily make him an expert. He might simply have survived through dumb luck. As the old saying goes, "It's better to be lucky than good." Also, the fact that he had this experience doesn't mean he was hardened by it or even that he learned anything from it. But still, beyond question, the people who've "been there, done that," who learned from and were toughened by the process, have an edge over the rest of us when it comes to preparedness."

"Those folks who pooh-pooh match pressure have never watched another person lose it during a match stage. I have, and the problem in every case was that these were people trying to jump three levels at once--from never shooting (Level 1) to combat pistol match (Level 4)."
I could not agree more. I just posted in the Laser no laser thread about training and how it can still fall apart under pressure. A "gunfight" is like any other fight. In boxing it only takes one punch, Martial Arts one hit, gun fight one round. Don't get me wrong, training is extremely important but anyone can loose on any given day. Sorry to be the pessimist(or am I a realist?).
 

DT4E31

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Im sure there are a couple teenage thugs who have held there guns sideways and fired blindly at other gang bangers firing blindly back. Does that make them a level 5 gun fighter, superior to a match shooter or a LEO or military trained /qualified shooter? The system is just something fun to pass the time with , like a cosmo poll on favorite sexual positions, nothing more.
 

Lthrnck

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Well maybe just remove the Level identification. When you put those types of labels people seem to think there is some kind of ranking system,level one is better then level 5 thing going on. In this case I really don't think that was the intent.

If I had to rate myself I would say 1-5, I never shot a real gun until I joined the Marines.I had my Red Ryder BB gun but I don't think that counts. Of course I got range training there and some real life gunfights when we were evacuating Viet Nam. After I got out of the Corps I work private security for a little while, but then started working for the VA. I sold my gun and didn't pick another one up for almost 20 years.

When they started killing little girls at Omish schools, I went down bought another one, took my CCW training and got my permit. Since then I have been to regular ranges, started shooting IDPA matches, and have been spent sometime on a computerized tactial simulator. The computerized system I shoot on lets me use my own weapons, my own ammo, so I get a real life feel of what's happening with my own equipment.

I do one or a combination of these things on a monthly basis, and sometimes more then once a month.

My instructor at my CCW class made a good statement. He said if you really get into a gunfight. One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm. So my instructor said your should keep track of your shooting.

He said start a log. Put down anytime you practice. Of course keep certificates of training. Any type of records will show the judge and jury that you made an effort to keep your skills up.

Yes the other lawyer might try to turn this around on you and say you were a gun nut but I think I would rather trust the jury or judge to realize I was just praciting to keep my skills up.
 

VAopencarry

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One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Not competent? hell you hit him when you fired at him.
 

Citizen

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I have heard similar. The difference being that the prosecution and/or plaintiffmay come after you trying to prove irresponsibility: fired when it wasn't necessary, accidentally fired, big bad gun, modified gun, evil hollowpoints, lasers.

I follow the advice to log my practice sessions, modifications I make to the pistol,and particularly, my study of law and tactics. An exampleof a tactical item to log having studied would be the recent thread on a bad guy trying to use a Taser on you. Having downloaded, printed, and logged it,you can now show a jury that youreasonably believed deadly force was warranted because once immobilized your weapon could be turned on you. And you knew it before the shooting--not after.

Definitely log the things that prove you studied responsible firearm use.

Logging your practice time shows you take seriously the responsibility to not miss and hit a bystander. Logging your ammo selection proves you took seriouslythe responsibility to not shoot through and hit an innocent.

You get the idea.
 

BobCav

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Citizen wrote:
I have heard similar. The difference being that the prosecution and/or plaintiffmay come after you trying to prove irresponsibility: fired when it wasn't necessary, accidentally fired, big bad gun, modified gun, evil hollowpoints, lasers.

I follow the advice to log my practice sessions, modifications I make to the pistol,and particularly, my study of law and tactics. An exampleof a tactical item to log having studied would be the recent thread on a bad guy trying to use a Taser on you. Having downloaded, printed, and logged it,you can now show a jury that youreasonably believed deadly force was warranted because once immobilized your weapon could be turned on you. And you knew it before the shooting--not after.

Definitely log the things that prove you studied responsible firearm use.

Logging your practice time shows you take seriously the responsibility to not miss and hit a bystander. Logging your ammo selection proves you took seriouslythe responsibility to not shoot through and hit an innocent.

You get the idea.
Hey, that's a great idea! Maybe I'll make an Excel log that we can use....
 

Citizen

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BobCav wrote:
Citizen wrote:
I have heard similar. The difference being that the prosecution and/or plaintiffmay come after you trying to prove irresponsibility: fired when it wasn't necessary, accidentally fired, big bad gun, modified gun, evil hollowpoints, lasers.

I follow the advice to log my practice sessions, modifications I make to the pistol,and particularly, my study of law and tactics. An exampleof a tactical item to log having studied would be the recent thread on a bad guy trying to use a Taser on you. Having downloaded, printed, and logged it,you can now show a jury that youreasonably believed deadly force was warranted because once immobilized your weapon could be turned on you. And you knew it before the shooting--not after.

Definitely log the things that prove you studied responsible firearm use.

Logging your practice time shows you take seriously the responsibility to not miss and hit a bystander. Logging your ammo selection proves you took seriouslythe responsibility to not shoot through and hit an innocent.

You get the idea.
Hey, that's a great idea! Maybe I'll make an Excel log that we can use....
Make a separate section for round-count for spring-replacement, re-sale, etc. and you'll be set. We 'uns that uses notebooks will be envious.

You'll still want to keep the documents and articlesyou study in case your attorney needs them.I've read one fella on the internet who gets two copies and mails one to himself so the postmark on the sealed envelope proves when he studied the data. I guess he keeps the second copy in a loose-leaf notebook for refresher study.
 
D

Desertdoc

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You know.. i never thought i would be classed as a "gunfighter". I have had my share of time in the sandbox where wegot into some trouble and i must admit that knowing that i have fired rounds down range and known all the the feeling that follow those rounds i can sit here and say i hope i never have to pull my firearm again to return fire. But with that said if my life or the lives of others were in danger i wouldnt hesitate.

In my personal opinion anyone that choices to carry a firearm and doesnt make time to go to the range for some practice should be think twice before picking that gun up and putting it in the holster. Not only do you owe it to yourself, but everyone that you are around. You need to be proficient in your marksmanship to prevent harm from others. One shot, one kill
 

CDAT

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I have been in a few gunfights most of them over in the sand box, but I havebeen aroundseveral people who even though they have been in a gun fight or two I think they would still be lv 0. One example we were escorting a group of trucks, one of the drivers went out with only one mag for his rifle and took the plates out of his vest, but wait it gets better he put in foam plates so it looked like he had them to keep himself out of trouble. My self on the other hand wen out with 14 mags for my rifle and 3 for my pistol as the last thing I want is to be shot for the lack of shooting back. So what I am saying is just because you have been in a gunfight does not really mean you are at a better lv than someone who has not, I am sure there are lots of people who have not that are better shots than me.
 

Rattrapper

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Very interesting article, I am a police firearms trainer, Having been schooled at S&W,Sig, and the Massachusetts Training Council ( or what there name is this month) I shoot every week with something, at some kind of range. But these schools are only the follow up the other training I recieved and conducted with The USMC during the mid seventies. Where was a member ofThe Camp Pendlton Rifle and Pistol Team.

As to mind set, when I leave the house I AM A GUNFIGHTER, Like it or not I agree with Col. Cooper, made the comment that when you strapon a firearm, you are a gun fighter.
 

Gator5713

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Ok, I 'Practice on Standard Ranges'; I HAVE 'Attend(ed) Training classes' (and will likely attend more, but it is not a regular occurrence); and I HAVE been in 'matches';
however, I do not consider myself a 'match shooter' and do not shoot competitively very often at all! I have also had a few encounters with 2 legged varmints, but I don't consider any of those encounters 'gun fights'. My aim is fairly accurate with whatever I am shooting, I know how to strip/inspect/reassemble most any gun, but not super quickly, and my range time is often on a ranch or similar where I can practice from different positions, draw, rapid, etc...
So what does that make me?
 

Task Force 16

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VAopencarry wrote:
One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Not competent? hell you hit him when you fired at him.

It makes perfect sense! A competent shooter should be able to shoot the gun out of his/her attackers handand then keep shooting the gun accross the ground out of the attackers reach, until the attacker decides that he's met his match and gives up. A competent shooter should be able to do this while sipping tea, pinky out. If you can't do that you are not competent enough with a firearm to be carrying one around in public.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury............I rest my case.:p
 

Rattrapper

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Task Force 16 wrote:
VAopencarry wrote:
One of the first things your shooting victim or his family (if you killed him) is going to try in prove is that you were not competent to have a fire arm.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Not competent? hell you hit him when you fired at him.

It makes perfect sense! A competent shooter should be able to shoot the gun out of his/her attackers handand then keep shooting the gun accross the ground out of the attackers reach, until the attacker decides that he's met his match and gives up. A competent shooter should be able to do this while sipping tea, pinky out. If you can't do that you are not competent enough with a firearm to be carrying one around in public.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury............I rest my case.:p

I hope this was tongue and cheek, When The pucker factor kicks in, and your adrenaline takes over. You will not shoot as well as you did under competition. this is a fact that has been bourne out in many gunfights.

There is a program that was sponsored by S&W, That adressed these issues. And anyone who expects others to remain so calm as to get it all together, Sight Alignment, Trigger Control, Breathing, in the flash of a gun fight is not being realistic. A person would have to made of ice and without care to him/her self to perform in sucha manner.
 

FightingGlock19

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Match shooter? I've taken training classes with well known instructors taking the same class as me. The funny thing is, when you get an awsome good IDPA shooter in a self-defence class, they don't do any better than anybody else in the class.
 

Bravo_Sierra

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catass wrote:
Match shooter? I've taken training classes with well known instructors taking the same class as me. The funny thing is, when you get an awsome good IDPA shooter in a self-defence class, they don't do any better than anybody else in the class.
And that is what MOST the people on this board fail to understand. You can have a perfect gun and be IDPA master whatever... and FAIL in a real gunfight.

Everyone is a badass when they are standing on a square range firing at paper.

Get some training.
 

Legba

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I guess I'm about a 3.5. I've been invited to IDPA shoots, but I'm not a member and don't have an official ranking. They're down locally for the season, but I plan to join this coming spring. As for preparedness generally, I've had medic training and I've been kidnapped at gunpoint, so I daresay I'm a pretty cool customer in a crisis, but you can never know for sure how you'll handle an emergency until you're in one.

-ljp
 
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I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but there are only a couple of guys on this thread that know if they are ready for a gunfight or not.

Some people will be able to have bullets wizzing around their heads and remain calm and take care of business, and some will not.

Some will be able to shoot another human being and some will not.

I don't care what kind of training you have taken, unless the targets are shooting back, you don't know.

I have trained. I have shot stationary targets, moving targets, multiple targets, and I can pull and shoot and hit what I aim at.

That does not tell me I'm ready for a gunfight.

I have taken fire, remained calm and taken care of business, that tells me I'm as ready as as anyone can be for a gunfight.

Those that have been there know what I mean.
 

SouthernBoy

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:
I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but there are only a couple of guys on this thread that know if they are ready for a gunfight or not.

Some people will be able to have bullets wizzing around their heads and remain calm and take care of business, and some will not.

Some will be able to shoot another human being and some will not.

I don't care what kind of training you have taken, unless the targets are shooting back, you don't know.

I have trained. I have shot stationary targets, moving targets, multiple targets, and I can pull and shoot and hit what I aim at.

That does not tell me I'm ready for a gunfight.

I have taken fire, remained calm and taken care of business, that tells me I'm as ready as as anyone can be for a gunfight.

Those that have been there know what I mean.
Yes sir.

I am a firm believer in the concept that no one really knows how they are going to react in a deadly encounter until they are actually in one (or about to be like RIGHT NOW). Unless you have experienced taking and returning fire, you have no point of reference from which to draw. And people can surprise you with their response. You might have someone who likes to brag about what he'll do and then when hit with reality, he may be the first to crap his pants.

We train in order to have the hand/eye coordination and ability to deliver rounds to target. But when that target is flesh and blood, the one thing we cannot prepare for is taking that person down with deliberate fire.

The one thing that gets good people injured or killed is hesitation.. second guessing a situation and wishing it was not real. The BG, on the other hand, has no qualms about hurting you or worse. I don't know how to teach someone to aggressively and with extreme prejudice, deliver rounds to a human being and do so without hesitation or compassion.

You report that you have been there and done that which gives you a knowledge base that most all of us lack. And most importantly, you know how you might react should the need ever arise again. Glad you made it through.
 
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SouthernBoy wrote:
Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:
I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but there are only a couple of guys on this thread that know if they are ready for a gunfight or not.

Some people will be able to have bullets wizzing around their heads and remain calm and take care of business, and some will not.

Some will be able to shoot another human being and some will not.

I don't care what kind of training you have taken, unless the targets are shooting back, you don't know.

I have trained. I have shot stationary targets, moving targets, multiple targets, and I can pull and shoot and hit what I aim at.

That does not tell me I'm ready for a gunfight.

I have taken fire, remained calm and taken care of business, that tells me I'm as ready as as anyone can be for a gunfight.

Those that have been there know what I mean.
Yes sir.

I am a firm believer in the concept that no one really knows how they are going to react in a deadly encounter until they are actually in one (or about to be like RIGHT NOW). Unless you have experienced taking and returning fire, you have no point of reference from which to draw. And people can surprise you with their response. You might have someone who likes to brag about what he'll do and then when hit with reality, he may be the first to crap his pants.

We train in order to have the hand/eye coordination and ability to deliver rounds to target. But when that target is flesh and blood, the one thing we cannot prepare for is taking that person down with deliberate fire.

The one thing that gets good people injured or killed is hesitation.. second guessing a situation and wishing it was not real. The BG, on the other hand, has no qualms about hurting you or worse. I don't know how to teach someone to aggressively and with extreme prejudice, deliver rounds to a human being and do so without hesitation or compassion.

You report that you have been there and done that which gives you a knowledge base that most all of us lack. And most importantly, you know how you might react should the need ever arise again. Glad you made it through.

You sir...Get It.

Good luck to you.
 
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