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POT and Firearms... oh boy

Lovenox

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Sorry, after that nearly "Godwin"-like comment, the rational discussion of caffeine has obviously ended. :D

Sanka is a brand of decaffeinated coffee, sold around the world, and was one of the earliest decaffeinated varieties. "Sanka", is derived from the French words sans caféine ("without caffeine").

Take care!

So you got me on a technicality. Great!! But in spirit surely you knew what I was alluding to. In all honesty you couldn't have been seriously thinking that I meant a decaffeniated coffee...really? This is as bad as the grammar/Nazis that come out en force to divert the conversation. Stay on track or let the thread die.
 

Lovenox

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Vic Morrow and "Combat"

Chuck Conners and "The Rifleman"

Jimmy Cagne and "White Heat".......Top of the world Ma! ...and that tommy gun.

TV....in my book....:D

LOL Now thats comedy! What no Davey Crockett or Yosemite Sam?? :lol:
 

Dave_pro2a

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Are you guys really comparing caffeine with an illicit and illegal drug to prop up your argument?

Yes. Of course you can compare legal drugs to illegal drugs.

You can also compare marriage and prostitution. One is legal, the other illegal -- yet both are eerily similar.

I also like comparing cars available in America, to cars available over seas (that are illegal to import). In both cases we're just talking about automobiles, but their abilities, safety features, MPG, emissions output, etc. might all be different.

This is how adults converse: they use logic, analogy, comparisons, similies, et cetera.
 
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BigDave

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BigDave said:
As you can see there are those that will try to minimize the negative view on illegal drugs with poor comparisons of what about other item as alcohol and legal drugs.

Stated this on page 8, still holds true.
 

amlevin

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Ok, new topic:

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack

;)

Now I am curious after some of the personal attacks and trollish behavior I have seen posted, what made this one so different?


For the record, that was tongue in cheek.

That is rather amazing, isn't it, considering the ones that were left untouched. :eek:

I was amazed as well. It's to the point that this thread is merely taking up bandwidth.
 
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Lovenox

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You can also compare marriage and prostitution. One is legal, the other illegal -- yet both are eerily similar.

Wow. So that what adults do, huh? Compare thier spouses to street walkers?
 

amlevin

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That is rather amazing, isn't it, considering the ones that were left untouched. :eek:

You can also compare marriage and prostitution. One is legal, the other illegal -- yet both are eerily similar.

Wow. So that what adults do, huh? Compare thier spouses to street walkers?

No, some just fantasize on how they would like them to behave like one (only for them of course).
 

Dave_pro2a

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You can also compare marriage and prostitution. One is legal, the other illegal -- yet both are eerily similar.

Wow. So that what adults do, huh? Compare thier spouses to street walkers?

If I give you $10, will you buy yourself a sense of humor?

Or will you just waste it on Alcohol, cigarettes and coffee? :p
 

Tawnos

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In addition to that, back near the beginning of this thread, you will find posts railing against having access to a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, illicit drugs, or caffeine, which certainly does make caffeine a legitimate part of the discussion.

To the fact that caffeine itself is raised does not immediately give it credentials to become a legitimate part of the conversation. One, caffeine is a lawful substance, marijuana is not. Two, I have never heard of anybody being stopped for being under the influence of Sanka.

Comparing relative addictiveness of drugs, including caffeine, is certainly not out of place (note that is relative addictiveness, NOT relative effects of being under a drug's influence).

Perhaps, but it doesn't legitimize the use of marijuana. To try and do so is non sequiter. Some would say that playing videos games is addiction. But whats the relationship to firearms? Whats caffeine's realtionship to firearms? Minimal.

I would like you to get familiar with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

In short: you have continually tried to justify what ought to be based on what is. This doesn't stand logical muster, as it simply reiterates the status quo as a justification for the status quo. In other words, Appeal to Tradition. Merely pointing out something is legal or illegal does not address the question of whether it should be legal or illegal, it simply states a tautology.

Repeatedly saying "marijuana is illegal" is the true non sequitur in the discussion. No point is made (i.e. "it does not follow") from the discussion of harms caused by its legal status and actual harms of its usage to simply mention its status. Certainly, it is illegal now, that point we all agree upon. What is in question, then, is should it be illegal now. The means to evaluate that claim are by weighing its actual effects and the social effects of a policy which makes it illegal. To weigh actual effects, one must compare it to other drugs which are legal in the status quo. To weigh political effects, one must examine what happens as a result of enforcing the policies versus what would happen if the policies were not in place. This is what the discussion has often sought to do, but certain members have continually reverted to the weightless claim of "it's illegal" or "what good does this discussion do", never taking into account the profound social and constitutional impacts that stem from marijuana's illegality.

Take Citizen's post, for example: he effectively outlines how consequences such as no-knock warrants, mistaken raids, homicide for misdemeanor levels of an intoxicant, holes cut into the fourth amendment in order to justify search and seizure behaviors, funding of drug cartels, inability to effectively control distribution, no chance for harm reduction, et cetera all stem from the simple fact that making marijuana illegal doesn't get rid of it - it just pushes it to the black market. The sooner you step away from "it's illegal" rhetoric, the faster you begin to appreciate how many of your rights that are fundamentally tied to your right to keep and bear arms in defense of self and state, without fear of unreasonable search and seizure, is tied into the discussion of cannabis legalization.

But, to do all of this, you must first overcome the is-ought problem.
 

antispam540

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I would like you to get familiar with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

In short: you have continually tried to justify what ought to be based on what is. This doesn't stand logical muster, as it simply reiterates the status quo as a justification for the status quo. In other words, Appeal to Tradition. Merely pointing out something is legal or illegal does not address the question of whether it should be legal or illegal, it simply states a tautology.

Repeatedly saying "marijuana is illegal" is the true non sequitur in the discussion. No point is made (i.e. "it does not follow") from the discussion of harms caused by its legal status and actual harms of its usage to simply mention its status. Certainly, it is illegal now, that point we all agree upon. What is in question, then, is should it be illegal now. The means to evaluate that claim are by weighing its actual effects and the social effects of a policy which makes it illegal. To weigh actual effects, one must compare it to other drugs which are legal in the status quo. To weigh political effects, one must examine what happens as a result of enforcing the policies versus what would happen if the policies were not in place. This is what the discussion has often sought to do, but certain members have continually reverted to the weightless claim of "it's illegal" or "what good does this discussion do", never taking into account the profound social and constitutional impacts that stem from marijuana's illegality.

Take Citizen's post, for example: he effectively outlines how consequences such as no-knock warrants, mistaken raids, homicide for misdemeanor levels of an intoxicant, holes cut into the fourth amendment in order to justify search and seizure behaviors, funding of drug cartels, inability to effectively control distribution, no chance for harm reduction, et cetera all stem from the simple fact that making marijuana illegal doesn't get rid of it - it just pushes it to the black market. The sooner you step away from "it's illegal" rhetoric, the faster you begin to appreciate how many of your rights that are fundamentally tied to your right to keep and bear arms in defense of self and state, without fear of unreasonable search and seizure, is tied into the discussion of cannabis legalization.

But, to do all of this, you must first overcome the is-ought problem.

You, sir, are what's RIGHT with the internet. This is a clearly presented, well-thought-out logical series of statements, designed to engage the intellect of all who read it.

Snap judgements like "it's illegal" are mindless soothing phrases repeated by those who only feel safe when their government decides for them what is and isn't good. So many of our freedoms have been abridged in the name of fighting drugs - or communists, or terr'ists, or perverts, or 9/11. The response has been completely disproportionate to the stimulus.
 
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Lovenox

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In short: you have continually tried to justify what ought to be based on what is. This doesn't stand logical muster, as it simply reiterates the status quo as a justification for the status quo. In other words, Appeal to Tradition. Merely pointing out something is legal or illegal does not address the question of whether it should be legal or illegal, it simply states a tautology.

lol Your problem,cleverly disguised in lofty philosophy,is with the law. On the one hand you cite letter and verse as the highest measure of justice when confronted with the police concerning OC and weapons in general but when your line of thinking is derailed with "marijuana is illegal" somehow the law loses its potentcy and is even relegated as an antiquated piece of legislature.One could hold every law in contempt in this fashion as a simple measure of counterpoint. Simply legalizing a substance isn't a panacea to the actual drug use.Alcohol is a robust testament to this. Your zeal to start another fire is unnerving and even puzzling. However,for the record, I believe that some of the punishments dont fit the crime. I would rather leave those cells empty for the more immediate criminals.

Repeatedly saying "marijuana is illegal" is the true non sequitur in the discussion.

It is the very makeup of the debate and is logical to its core. You hold the police to a high standard yet make excuses and cherry pick which laws are viable and which are a matter of inconvience. If you believe the law to be sheer folly, then I venture to guess a considerable amount of your time is spent to reverse this agregious injustice. I mean we pretty much have it locked up here with the exception of a couple of rogue librarians and park officials making up illegal signs as they go along this OC stuff is pretty much locked up. Keep us posted on your fight to legalize marijuana goes.
 

Lovenox

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You, sir, are what's RIGHT with the internet. This is a clearly presented, well-thought-out logical series of statements, designed to engage the intellect of all who read it.

Snap judgements like "it's illegal" are mindless soothing phrases repeated by those who only feel safe when their government decides for them what is and isn't good. So many of our freedoms have been abridged in the name of fighting drugs - or communists, or terr'ists, or perverts, or 9/11. The response has been completely disproportionate to the stimulus.

You've never lived in a Third World country have you? lol
 

antispam540

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You've never lived in a Third World country have you? lol

I'm not sure what you mean - I've never lived in a third-world country, and I'm guessing the majority of Americans haven't either.

If you're implying that since things are so bad elsewhere, we should be grateful for what we have, I agree. We should be happy for what we have. Does this mean we should stop trying to make it better? I don't think so.

Also, in response to your previous post, yes, we do expect our dealings with law enforcement to obey the letter of the law - and that's how it should be. I would expect the same letter of the law to be upheld when dealing with marijuana and law enforcement, whether marijuana was legal or illegal. We're not holding the law in contempt, we're just debating on whether or not it is 1) efficacious, 2) constitutional, and 3) necessary. The same debate continues about firearms, tax law, alcohol, zoning rights, and nuclear proliferation treaties, so don't single marijuana out.

We're not questioning whether or not marijuana is legal, or whether or not we should resort to civil disobedience to thwart the law. The question is whether or not the law should be changed, and, regardless of the law, do marijuana and firearms mix? I personally believe the answer to the first question is yes, and the answer to the second is no, but that's not the same as a logical argument backing up my beliefs.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Hmmm yet alcohol was illegal (constitutionally I may add), how did it become legal?
Was it because only outlaws and drunks discussed legalizing it?

Still no rebuttal?

And marijuana is illegal unconstitutionally I may add.
 

Lovenox

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I'm not sure what you mean - I've never lived in a third-world country, and I'm guessing the majority of Americans haven't either.If you're implying that since things are so bad elsewhere, we should be grateful for what we have, I agree. We should be happy for what we have. Does this mean we should stop trying to make it better? I don't think so.

I think as Americans we are a bit spoiled and don't take into considerations how good we really have it here. But yes you are correct,we should not sit on our butts and be fully content with comparitive freedoms. That is dangerous. I was just offering an expanded and comprehensive view on our freedoms here in America. My experience in Central America has made me love America even more.

We're not questioning whether or not marijuana is legal, or whether or not we should resort to civil disobedience to thwart the law.

If the pro-marijuana movement was serious and ceased to be caricuture of itself then it would be a conduit to enact laws that reflect thier views. Are thier viable candidates that reflect NORML's views? Is the pro-marijuana movement willing to put blood,sweat and tears into the cause? etc
Answer me this (I dont know the answer):

If the constitutionality, effectiveness and its nessacity are in serious question why have the laws remained on the books? If the pro-marijuana side has such an articulate,concise and coherent argument then why the lack of change? Surely, if the numbers are on the pro side isn't a mere bill away from law?
 
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