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A statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry on the Passage of SB 59

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TheQ

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Friends of Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

There is exciting news out of Lansing regarding SB-59. It has passed the Senate and now moves to the House of Representatives for discussion. The bill has new language included which eliminates the "open carry in a PFZ with a CPL" loophole. This new language was included in a compromise. Michigan's 340,000+ CPL holders will now have the option to obtain an 8 additional hours of handgun training and then be able to conceal carry anywhere in the state except courts, casinos, and Federal buildings. When this bill is passed in the Michigan House of Representatives and signed by the Governor, Michigan CPL holders with the additional training exemption will enjoy more freedom to carry concealed than in any other state. In addition to these changes, CPL licensing will now move to the county Sheriff streamlining the process. Michigan Open Carry Inc. is happy to support this bill for the greater good of all firearm owners in Michigan. It is our hope this bill will quickly pass and be signed into law.

/s/
Phillip Hofmeister, President
Adam Yancer, Vice-President
Randy Davis, Secretary
Ryan Ransom, Treasurer
Rob Harris, Media Director
Jason S, IT Team
Brian Jeffs, Research Director
Sandi Beahan, Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
Ryan Adams, Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
 
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davidmcbeth

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I foresee a world of hurt for gun owners in this bill who do decide to get additional training and end up being arrested and needing to prove their innocence.

I would not support the bill as written...
 

Michigander

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My request for further information from MOC I posted in the other thread are as of yet not responded to. Thus, my plan is now to call the NRA directly tomorrow, because honestly the sucker punch nature of the open carry ban does seem like their typical style of Negotiating Rights Away, and maybe they'll even tell me as much. We'll see. I do know that MCRGO is almost entirely useless, having tried and failed to get even a token gesture of help from them in the past, so I'm sure seeking information from them would be of little use....

I will ask again, for MOC to please contact me privately and explain the entire story, if you don't want me to do everything I can to go against you in this decision.
 
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TheQ

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My request for further information from MOC I posted in the other thread are as of yet not responded to. Thus, my plan is now to calling the NRA directly tomorrow, because honestly the sucker punch nature of the open carry ban does seem like their typical style of Negotiating Rights Away, and maybe they'll even tell me as much. We'll see. I do know that MCRGO is almost entirely useless, having tried and failed to get even a token gesture of help from them in the past, so I'm sure seeking information from them would be of little use....

I will ask again, for MOC to contact me privately and explain the entire story, if you don't want me to do everything I can to go against you in this decision.

Glen,

You do what you need to do.
 

davidmcbeth

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can you explain that a little more? if someone gets the extra training why would they be arrested or in a "world of hurt".

Because the state does not need to prove you did not have additional training to secure a conviction; its not an element they have to prove. So they'll have PC if they find you in a "restricted area, except to only those with additional training" ... you have to prove you have obtained the additional training required. Sounds reasonable right? Until you are facing prison time and then you understand that you need to do more than just show it .. you must prove it.

I think its a trick by legislators across the county .. instead of putting the burden on the state, they shift it to the lawful gun owner. They can write the law in which the burden would be on the state .. they choose not to...why do you think that is?

A few arrests of folks with additional training, even if found not guilty, will quash the new rights pronto. Who wants to spend 60K on a trial that is bogus? Or be found guilty because a judge agrees with a DA that the training actually did not meet the requirements?

I have nothing to gain or lose from this bill .. I'm on the east coast .. so it's just my opinion without any political gain or loss attached to it

People who own guns should check not just the law, but the court cases to see how the courts have viewed the gun laws...folks would learn much and see that the elements needed to prove guilty are minimal when it comes to the enforcement of gun laws. The courts are stacked against the average gun owner.
 
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Michigander

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Glen,

You do what you need to do.

It is now clear that you are being hostile and defiant to my requests for information on why this is all happening, which if anything just adds fuel to the fire of my concerns.

Though I am not entirely certain I want to try to kill this bill, I would ask that anyone who potentially wishes to lobby against this bill with me contact me by private message, or my email or phone if you have those, because it very much looks like MOC is going in a bad direction and doesn't want to admit it, and it would be best to be ready to make as large of an effort as possible if it comes to that.

I am very open to being wrong, Phil, and would still very much appreciate it if you'd contact me tomorrow.
 

TheQ

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It is now clear that you are being hostile and defiant to my requests for information on why this is all happening, which if anything just adds fuel to the fire of my concerns.

Though I am not entirely certain I want to try to kill this bill, I would ask that anyone who potentially wishes to lobby against this bill with me contact me by private message, or my email or phone if you have those, because it very much looks like MOC is going in a bad direction and doesn't want to admit it, and it would be best to be ready to make as large of an effort as possible if it comes to that.

I am very open to being wrong, Phil, and would still very much appreciate it if you'd contact me tomorrow.

It's not defiance. I owe you no explanations; I don't answer to a man who has openly walked away from and denounced any affiliation with Michigan Open Carry, Inc. -- what hubris! I answer to the people who voted to support this bill -- they are all mentioned in the OP.

BTW, see your PM :)
 
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griffin

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Q, did anyone ever tell you your bedside manner sucks?
willy_nilly.gif
 

BoiledFrogs

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can you explain that a little more? if someone gets the extra training why would they be arrested or in a "world of hurt".

It also requires you to CC. Meaning, if you OC by accident, you are guilty unless you can prove it's by accident. A slippery slope that prosecutors and judges like Aqualina will use against gun owners.
 

TheQ

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It also requires you to CC. Meaning, if you OC by accident, you are guilty unless you can prove it's by accident. A slippery slope that prosecutors and judges like Aqualina will use against gun owners.

There is arguably no penalty assigned in the law for intentional OC. That being said, any crime has to be proven (including mens rea/intention) beyond all reasonable doubt.

PS, seen stainless1911 lately? Looked in a mirror?
 
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davidmcbeth

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. That being said, any crime has to be proven (including mens rea/intention) beyond all reasonable doubt.

But creating a civil and criminal penalty would still require $$$ to defend, yes? And there is harm in just this, yes?

One can win a case and still lose.

The SB seems to create separate classes of similar carriers depending upon training, different penalties for violations, etc.

Its a cluster puck. And cops? They'll be so confused they'll just take out the cuffs and let a judge figure it out.

Any time you make the law complicated regarding hand guns then you can be assured who will end up on the short end of the stick ... the gunner... of this, there is no reasonable doubt.

And many people will plead to a guilty plea on criminal charges because they and their lawyers don't understand the law.
 

TheQ

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But creating a civil and criminal penalty would still require $$$ to defend, yes? And there is harm in just this, yes?

One can win a case and still lose.

The SB seems to create separate classes of similar carriers depending upon training, different penalties for violations, etc.

Its a cluster puck. And cops? They'll be so confused they'll just take out the cuffs and let a judge figure it out.

Any time you make the law complicated regarding hand guns then you can be assured who will end up on the short end of the stick ... the gunner... of this, there is no reasonable doubt.

And many people will plead to a guilty plea on criminal charges because they and their lawyers don't understand the law.

OC in a PFZ with a CPL is arguably illegal right now. Read People v Watkins (2011, Judge Aquilina, Ingham County Circuit Court)
 

davidmcbeth

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More one-Words posts without quoting. Shocking. Guess who else did that...

Anyhow, how's Waterford/Davison?

seems like he agreed with my posting .... like a "+1" post. I have done that in the past...and similar 1-word approvals.

Hope this clears up his post for you.

Keep the Faith !
 

griffin

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OC in a PFZ with a CPL is arguably illegal right now. Read People v Watkins (2011, Judge Aquilina, Ingham County Circuit Court)

protest.gif
I disagree with your take entirely, although I understand why you are saying this.
 

griffin

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More one-Words posts without quoting. Shocking. Guess who else did that...

Anyhow, how's Waterford/Davison?

Big Gay Al has stated that Boiled Frogs is Stainless, but basically asked everyone to start over. Blessed are the merciful, Phil.
 
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