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2010 Legislative Session
- Thread starter ChinChin
- Start date
virginiatuck
Regular Member
imported post
It's not good enough to merely modify § 18.2-308(J3). The bill that was passed by the GA last session was not right. All of § 18.2-308(J3) must be removed.
To those who disagree, refer to sub-section J1. That sub-section already prescribes a severe penalty for carrying a concealed firearm while under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs.
It's not good enough to merely modify § 18.2-308(J3). The bill that was passed by the GA last session was not right. All of § 18.2-308(J3) must be removed.
To those who disagree, refer to sub-section J1. That sub-section already prescribes a severe penalty for carrying a concealed firearm while under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs.
Repeater
Regular Member
imported post
virginiatuck wrote:
J3 is like saying if you drink, don't drive at all. That's different than saying don't drive under the influence.
virginiatuck wrote:
This is correct. J1 already captures those who imprudently carry and consume to excess.
J3 is like saying if you drink, don't drive at all. That's different than saying don't drive under the influence.
darthmord
Regular Member
imported post
Grapeshot wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
Yeah, I'm kinda lost here too. Details ProShooter, details!
imported post
darthmord wrote:
Shall issue is just that. Either you are entitled or you aren't. The only gray area is being so dangerous the Sheriff can file an affidavit to stop the application. Get rid of that and it's clear sailing.
You take a class and receive a certificate. With that certificate, you can carry concealed.
Now if you are prohibited, it's no different than OC'ing. Get caught and go to jail.
darthmord wrote:
If I read him correctly, it's a good compromise for an Alaskan carry law.
Shall issue is just that. Either you are entitled or you aren't. The only gray area is being so dangerous the Sheriff can file an affidavit to stop the application. Get rid of that and it's clear sailing.
You take a class and receive a certificate. With that certificate, you can carry concealed.
Now if you are prohibited, it's no different than OC'ing. Get caught and go to jail.
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
Grapeshot wrote:
I have students all the time that come to class and want to bring their guns to learn about them. They should be allowed to carry concealed if enroute to a gun training class....like these other exemptions allow:
18.2-308
B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:
1. Any person while in his own place of business;
2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
Add something like this.....
7) Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and recognized firearms training and/or safety class, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
Grapeshot wrote:
I have students all the time that come to class and want to bring their guns to learn about them. They should be allowed to carry concealed if enroute to a gun training class....like these other exemptions allow:
18.2-308
B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:
1. Any person while in his own place of business;
2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
Add something like this.....
7) Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and recognized firearms training and/or safety class, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
nuc65
Activist Member
imported post
ProShooter wrote:
What would be the point of this, other than supporting another gun control regulation that in this case doesn't make much sense?
ProShooter wrote:
?? Yeah, let's add some more rules about something that is already in the rules...
What would be the point of this, other than supporting another gun control regulation that in this case doesn't make much sense?
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
nuc65 wrote:
Because, a good number of students that I see in class have no knowledge about the gun they just bought. They do not want to OC since their knowledge base is zero. They throw the gun into their handbag and come strolling into class....hence, an illegally concealed handgun. I almost made a woman wet herself last week when I told her that she was illegally carrying and that she needed to open carry the firearm when she left. She carried it into the class in her lunchbag. She had no idea that it wasn't ok to carry the gun that way if she was going to a gun safety class.
An exemption such as the one outlined above would be beneficial to folks who don't know the law and are in a potential spot of getting jammed up for illegally carrying concealed. Having an exemption to the statute of illegally carrying a concealed weapon would be the opposite of a gun control regulation, don't you think?
thanks for playing....
nuc65 wrote:
Because, a good number of students that I see in class have no knowledge about the gun they just bought. They do not want to OC since their knowledge base is zero. They throw the gun into their handbag and come strolling into class....hence, an illegally concealed handgun. I almost made a woman wet herself last week when I told her that she was illegally carrying and that she needed to open carry the firearm when she left. She carried it into the class in her lunchbag. She had no idea that it wasn't ok to carry the gun that way if she was going to a gun safety class.
An exemption such as the one outlined above would be beneficial to folks who don't know the law and are in a potential spot of getting jammed up for illegally carrying concealed. Having an exemption to the statute of illegally carrying a concealed weapon would be the opposite of a gun control regulation, don't you think?
thanks for playing....
nuc65
Activist Member
imported post
ProShooter wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
I think that IMHO it doesn't make much sense. The law already talks to transporting a weapon in a concealed manner, separate and secure. How would one prove they are going to a class? Carrying it in a handbag would still be illegal, at least if were loose. I don't think your exemption would help much at least the way it was worded, but then I am not a lawyer and I think fewer laws are a better answer than more laws. Vermont has a reasonable answer to my way of thinking carry however you want as long as you aren't exempted from owning a firearm (eg. felon).
TFred
Regular Member
imported post
nuc65 wrote:
Does Virginia have a transport law? The Federal law may only apply when your travel crosses state lines. If Virginia has a similar law for entirely intrastate travel, I'd like to know the reference.
Proof of going to class: any number of ways. A registration receipt, a call to the instructor, a training certificate that can be provided after class with the class date.
If the handbag is shut with snaps or a zipper, why isn't that "secure"? No less secure than a gun case with snap clips, and maybe even a bit more.
TFred
nuc65 wrote:
After reading the further explanation, what he's suggesting makes perfect sense to me.
Does Virginia have a transport law? The Federal law may only apply when your travel crosses state lines. If Virginia has a similar law for entirely intrastate travel, I'd like to know the reference.
Proof of going to class: any number of ways. A registration receipt, a call to the instructor, a training certificate that can be provided after class with the class date.
If the handbag is shut with snaps or a zipper, why isn't that "secure"? No less secure than a gun case with snap clips, and maybe even a bit more.
TFred
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
nuc65 wrote:
How would one prove that they are.......
1. Any person while in his own place of business;
2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
I would guess they could prove that they're headed to a class the same way!
nuc65 wrote:
How would one prove that they are.......
1. Any person while in his own place of business;
2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
I would guess they could prove that they're headed to a class the same way!
TFred
Regular Member
imported post
ProShooter wrote:
Good enough?
TFred
ProShooter wrote:
Here you go Pro... offer a bonus "firearms safety / cleaning inspection" service along with your class...
Good enough?
TFred
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
TFred wrote:
LOL!
Actually, and not to parse words, but I think a good prosecutor could arugue that "cleaning" a gun is quite different than "repairing" one.
TFred wrote:
ProShooter wrote:Here you go Pro... offer a bonus "firearms safety / cleaning inspection" service along with your class...
Good enough?
TFred
LOL!
Actually, and not to parse words, but I think a good prosecutor could arugue that "cleaning" a gun is quite different than "repairing" one.
imported post
ProShooter wrote:
That said - why add this #7? There are already defined ways to transport or they can simply OC. I still do not see the benefit of another layer to the laws.
Yata hey
ProShooter wrote:
Everybody, even the novice needs to be aware of the laws as they apply to them.
That said - why add this #7? There are already defined ways to transport or they can simply OC. I still do not see the benefit of another layer to the laws.
Yata hey
TFred
Regular Member
imported post
Grapeshot wrote:
Consider the many possible scenarios this exception could cover. One was briefly mentioned earlier here... a traditional non-gun person is finally convinced that they need to get rid of that "non". They know next to nothing, borrow or buy a new gun, take it in the case, barely touched as of yet, to the CHP class for some hands-on training.
Walking across the parking lot from the car to the class, gun in case, is that concealed carry? Whether it is or not, do you think it would be better for a non-gun person (at the time) to be openly carrying a gun (probably without a holster) in public? Would they also know how to even do that without brandishing? Everyone started at ground zero at some point, why put these folks in a position to be arrested before they even get started?
Especially considering the other exceptions already in place, I think this is quite valid.
JMHO, as usual.
TFred
Oh, PS, I'll ask again, is there any Virginia-specific code for transport? I thought it was uncertain that the Federal transport code applied intrastate.
Grapeshot wrote:
I'm not at all trying to be a smart-alec... did you read through all the prior posts here?
Consider the many possible scenarios this exception could cover. One was briefly mentioned earlier here... a traditional non-gun person is finally convinced that they need to get rid of that "non". They know next to nothing, borrow or buy a new gun, take it in the case, barely touched as of yet, to the CHP class for some hands-on training.
Walking across the parking lot from the car to the class, gun in case, is that concealed carry? Whether it is or not, do you think it would be better for a non-gun person (at the time) to be openly carrying a gun (probably without a holster) in public? Would they also know how to even do that without brandishing? Everyone started at ground zero at some point, why put these folks in a position to be arrested before they even get started?
Especially considering the other exceptions already in place, I think this is quite valid.
JMHO, as usual.
TFred
Oh, PS, I'll ask again, is there any Virginia-specific code for transport? I thought it was uncertain that the Federal transport code applied intrastate.
imported post
TFred wrote:
If we must clean up the potential problem before it occurs, then I suggest something like the federal transportation law for travel but within the state, with additional wording to allow pedestrian transportation.
IMO - we muddy the water referring to this as concealed carry.
Yata hey
TFred wrote:
Yep, read it all and still see it as a solution looking for a problem. Has anyone in Va. ever been charged with such an "offense?"
If we must clean up the potential problem before it occurs, then I suggest something like the federal transportation law for travel but within the state, with additional wording to allow pedestrian transportation.
IMO - we muddy the water referring to this as concealed carry.
Yata hey
darthmord
Regular Member
imported post
ProShooter wrote:
You have a gunsmith at your business? If so, case closed.
Thanks for explaining. I understand where you are coming from now. On that note, why not make sure the students are informed of how they are to bring firearms to the class? My wife & I (when we took our CHP class at a local range) took our firearms with us in their manufacturer cases and they were unloaded and locked in the cases. Can't get much more transport than that except perhaps to disassemble the firearms.
ProShooter wrote:
TFred wrote:ProShooter wrote:Here you go Pro... offer a bonus "firearms safety / cleaning inspection" service along with your class...
Good enough?
TFred
LOL!
Actually, and not to parse words, but I think a good prosecutor could arugue that "cleaning" a gun is quite different than "repairing" one.
You have a gunsmith at your business? If so, case closed.
Thanks for explaining. I understand where you are coming from now. On that note, why not make sure the students are informed of how they are to bring firearms to the class? My wife & I (when we took our CHP class at a local range) took our firearms with us in their manufacturer cases and they were unloaded and locked in the cases. Can't get much more transport than that except perhaps to disassemble the firearms.