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.380 as a defensive caliber?

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Aug 23, 2006
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I certainly wouldn't volunteer to let anybody shoot me with it. I use it in one of my BUGs...Speer Gold Dots in a Kel-Tec P3AT...never my primary carry weapon but I'd still rather have that than nothing at all.

Sorry Vista, AZ? Give my regards to my old stomping grounds (Fort We-got-cha) from days gone by.
 

Captain Nemo

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For those interested the following is a list of the most popular defensive handgun ammunition. It lists the Taylor Knock Down power of those calibers. The Taylor KO factor is the figure used by the FBI to determine relative stopping power of ammunition.
.32ACP 2.7
.380 4.6
.38S&W 6.0
9mm parabellum 7.8
.38 special 7.7
.40S&W 10.2
.45ACP 11.5
.44 Special 12.2
.45 Long Colt 12.5
.357 Magnum 12.9
.44 Magnum 16.9

The Taylor KO factor uses a combination of bullet weight, muzzle velocity and bullet diameter to calculate it's values. Different bullet weights and velocities can affect the list. As an example the 9mm and .38 special could change places. Usually the variations aren't significant. The relative KO factors still remain valid.
 
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M

McX

Guest
what about 10mm, i'm embarking on a study of the 10mm. i had to abandon the .357, because i would only have 5 shots, beloved classic that it is- parked on a dead cyl for safety, so i am studying the 10 mm in earnest.
 

Captain Nemo

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10mm auto Taylor KO = 11

The formula is: TKO = (weight X diameter X speed)/7000

You can calculate the TKO facor at any distance if you know the velocity at that distance.
 
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GlockMeisterG21

Campaign Veteran
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Dec 17, 2008
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637
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Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA
what about 10mm, i'm embarking on a study of the 10mm. i had to abandon the .357, because i would only have 5 shots, beloved classic that it is- parked on a dead cyl for safety, so i am studying the 10 mm in earnest.

With most modern revolvers you don't have to do that anymore. I trust my 40 yr old Colt Cobra with a full cylinder.
 

me812

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
216
Location
federally occupied Arizona
With most modern revolvers you don't have to do that anymore. I trust my 40 yr old Colt Cobra with a full cylinder.

Yeah, I've owned two Rugers and they both had the transfer bars.
 

JG

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
52
Location
Northern Ark.
Ruger LCP

I bought a ruger lcp for edc with remington golden saber hollow points

I bought a LCP about two months ago. Took it to the range three times. Jamed twice. I couldnt hit crap with it. The long trigger pull was the main problem. By the time I sqweeze it Im off target. Sold it back to the dealer last week. I took a beating. Paid $300, sold it back for $230. I dont believe in selling hand guns through the paper. You dont know who is buying it. I will start CC my taurus 38 Spec again. Looking at a Sig Saure 9MM. I dont want to CC anything less than 9MM anyway. I dont know what I was thinking when I bought it. My wife lets me buy all the guns I want but wont let me buy a new pick-up. Tells me to trade in my CRV. I told her NO, I want both.:)
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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The Taylor KO factor ratings are probably a poor method of selecting a defensive handgun, although I understand they are used in video games to assign relative power to different weapons.

If one relied on the TKOF one might come to an dangerously untrue conclusion that the .44 magnum is the best choice for a defensive firearm, ignoring considerations such as over penetration, the size of the gun, the weight of the gun (slow to draw and handle, burdensome to carry, difficult to conceal), limited number of rounds, time between shots due to recoil and muzzle flash and blast-- all things necessary to ponder.

There simply is no single factor that determines the best possible choice of a defensive firearm. It's unique to each individual-- so all of the things above must be taken into consideration, along with the individual's circumstances and proficiency with a particular firearm, plus the reliability and other characteristics of the firearm itself.
 

BROKENSPROKET

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Joined
Jan 5, 2010
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Location
Trempealeau County
.32ACP 2.7
.380 4.6
.38S&W 6.0
9mm parabellum 7.8
.38 special 7.7
.40S&W 10.2
.45ACP 11.5
.44 Special 12.2
.45 Long Colt 12.5
.357 Magnum 12.9
.44 Magnum 16.9

I knew little to nothing when I purchased my XD-.45ACP. I was set on buying a Tuarus revolver for hiking in Montana's mountains. I don't remember the model, but it was made of a strong lighter weight metal. THEN I found out that Open Carry was legal. Then I changed my mind and got the largest semi-auto I could. If there is a bigger one, then the sales guy lied to me. A revolver just did not make sense to me as a self defense firearm. Not something I would want if I was being shot at. Dirty Harry I am not. For a CC firearm, I have been looking at the Taurus Millinium PT145 Pro. I got some compression t-shirt holsters, with a XL golf polo over it, the PT145 dissappears, but will print if I move the right way.

So, is .45ACP the largest semi-auto and the list above?
 

BROKENSPROKET

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2,199
Location
Trempealeau County
Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges

The Taylor KO factor ratings are probably a poor method of selecting a defensive handgun, although I understand they are used in video games to assign relative power to different weapons.

If one relied on the TKOF one might come to an dangerously untrue conclusion that the .44 magnum is the best choice for a defensive firearm, ignoring considerations such as over penetration, the size of the gun, the weight of the gun (slow to draw and handle, burdensome to carry, difficult to conceal), limited number of rounds, time between shots due to recoil and muzzle flash and blast-- all things necessary to ponder.

There simply is no single factor that determines the best possible choice of a defensive firearm. It's unique to each individual-- so all of the things above must be taken into consideration, along with the individual's circumstances and proficiency with a particular firearm, plus the reliability and other characteristics of the firearm itself.

Take 'the person' out of the equation, and compare only semi-autos with semi-autos, does the TKOF then make better sense, in a limited perspective? What is your opinion?
 

Captain Nemo

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Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
The Taylor KO factor is only a relative value of bullet performance. There have been many attempts to devise a scientific formula so that the best defensive ammo can be determined. Some have been partly sucessful none have been 100% sucessful. There are too many variables. Taylor was a big game hunter in Africa, He wanted a formula to determine which big bore bullet had the most "stopping' power. Even he realizes the imperfections in the KO factor and cautions in his book on the subject that the values should be used in the broad sense. For example: A hot handload, flatnosed 200 grain .38 special bullet may have more "knockdown" power than a factory loaded 155 grain full metal jacket .45ACP. The KO factor is only a relative value. Too be of best value the composition of compared bullets must be equal. However, it does provide a yardstick.

The KO factor is probably of most use for those with moderate experience and capabilities. I submitted the information only as a matter of interest and because there is no absolute scientific means of determining knockdown power, it is the widely applied concept. Contrary to some opinions on the forum I am a student of "It ain't what you hit them with, it's where you hit them". A .22 magnum has a KO factor of only 1.8. On my farm I have killed a number of cattle for butchering with a .22magnum. If you draw a line from the left ear to the right eye and from the right ear to the left eye and place a .22 magnum bullet at the intersection, a 1500 pound steer runs 48 inches, straight down, killed instantly.
 

comp45acp

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Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
383
Location
Watertown, WI, ,
The Taylor KO factor ratings are probably a poor method of selecting a defensive handgun, although I understand they are used in video games to assign relative power to different weapons.

If one relied on the TKOF one might come to an dangerously untrue conclusion that the .44 magnum is the best choice for a defensive firearm, ignoring considerations such as over penetration, the size of the gun, the weight of the gun (slow to draw and handle, burdensome to carry, difficult to conceal), limited number of rounds, time between shots due to recoil and muzzle flash and blast-- all things necessary to ponder.

There simply is no single factor that determines the best possible choice of a defensive firearm. It's unique to each individual-- so all of the things above must be taken into consideration, along with the individual's circumstances and proficiency with a particular firearm, plus the reliability and other characteristics of the firearm itself.

Another reason the TKOF is a poor way of evaluating self defense rounds is that it does not take into account bullet performance. Bullet engineering has advanced a great deal in the past several years and is the real key to the performance of self defense round. Some of the bullet offerings from Hornady, Winchester and Federal that are virtually assured of expanding make even the lower powered rounds effective defense rounds.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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Another reason the TKOF is a poor way of evaluating self defense rounds is that it does not take into account bullet performance. Bullet engineering has advanced a great deal in the past several years and is the real key to the performance of self defense round. Some of the bullet offerings from Hornady, Winchester and Federal that are virtually assured of expanding make even the lower powered rounds effective defense rounds.

Absolutely true, because if one compared two bullets of identical caliber, velocity and weight, the TKOF would consider them to have the same "knock out" value. But if one is a a FMJ and the other a JHP, on paper-- figuratively and literally-- they would have the same value, but on a living target the FMJ may sail clean through creating much less wounding than the expanding hollow point that dumps all of its energy in the target and causes a wider wound track.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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I knew little to nothing when I purchased my XD-.45ACP. I was set on buying a Tuarus revolver for hiking in Montana's mountains. I don't remember the model, but it was made of a strong lighter weight metal. THEN I found out that Open Carry was legal. Then I changed my mind and got the largest semi-auto I could. If there is a bigger one, then the sales guy lied to me. A revolver just did not make sense to me as a self defense firearm. Not something I would want if I was being shot at. Dirty Harry I am not. For a CC firearm, I have been looking at the Taurus Millinium PT145 Pro. I got some compression t-shirt holsters, with a XL golf polo over it, the PT145 dissappears, but will print if I move the right way.

So, is .45ACP the largest semi-auto and the list above?

Depends upon what you mean by largest--- and probably not by any meaning. There are semi-autos in .44 magnum, e.g., the Desert Eagle, which comes in an even more powerful .50 AE. Also comes in a .357 magnum version. Plus there are plenty of guns in .357 sig, which has similar ballistics to the .357 magnum.

10mm Auto is not on the list and 10mm handguns are not difficult to find. And the hotter loads of a 10mm are comparable to a .41 magnum. I'm assuming Nemo's rating of "11" on the TKOF for 10mm was in reference to the more common medium velocity loads. The 45ACP is a bit of a cream puff next to the 10mm, but the major drawback of the 10mm is that the ammo is expensive, although not as expensive as .50AE. 50AE may be a fine hunting round, but it is a silly choice for defense, whereas the 10mm Auto is a viable round for defensive purposes-- although still not my first choice under most circumstances. Under a few circumstances it is-- in the wide open west where I might have to be wary of both man and bear-- I consider the 10 to be an acceptable compromise that's capable of handling both situations. (Although I might switch magazines depending upon whether I face man or bear, or perhaps carry a Dutch-loaded magazine in the gun.)
 

hardballer

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For me, the .45 is a nice blend of 'knock em down the first time' and controllability. The "H ell of a kick" myth for the 1911 is just that. It is not nearly as brutal as a light weight 9mm or a snub .357. There are about a gazillion 1911's out there and for the most part, all parts are interchangeable.

There is enough .45ACP floating around to sink a battleship. You don't need a tool to field strip a 1911 and if you are resourceful, you can do a total tear down without tools. All the old negative myths about the 1911 are moot since the early 90's. I am not very familiar with the workings of a Glock but am told it is a reliable, versatile sidearm as well. There are a bunch of others. All good. All chambered in .45ACP.

There are very small guns like the AMT Backup chambered in .45ACP. Also several very small 1911s and glocks and many others too.

I don't disagree with the 10mm either. The Nudge hunts javelina with one. Over penetration may be a problem though.

What this obsession with 'small' sidearms is about, I am not sure. Hypothetically, I could have carried a full sized 1911 in an IWB holster or just in my waistband, with a T-shirt, Hawaiian shirt, Golf shirt, etc. wearing shorts, pants and sweats. Never printed. Never revealed. I could have been fishing, hunting, doing yard-work, riding a motorcycle, etc. Active and safe.

It could be that no one in the last twenty or so years has seen, met or talked with me un-armed, including LEOs. This is all hypothetical of course and bears no relation to me or real life. All pure fantasy. I have a don't ask, don't tell policy in place.

Point is, that I have proven to myself, using the above hypothetical circumstances, that a 'full sized 1911 can be successfully carried in various ways with no ill consequences. So, I ask myself, (it's OK to talk to yourself, it's even OK to answer yourself, Just don't ever respond to yourself with . . .HUH?) Why in the H-E- double hockey sticks would I put myself in danger, not just myself but my family too, by being under gunned when so many much more appropriate choices are available.

That is why I do not carry a 9mm or lesser round. I do understand the argument for a small gun for small hands but there are now even 1911s made specifically for smaller hands and Kahr 9 or .45 as well as a slew or others. So why put yourself at such a disadvantage.

Also, just to be clear, if it is the only choice possible because of circumstances, economics (doubtful as there are several .45s in the same or near price range) or ergonomics, sure use it, but for God's sake, save up for a real gun. For yourself, your family and your peace of mind.
 

davegran

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May 1, 2009
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Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
....Hypothetically, I could have carried a full sized 1911 in an IWB holster or just in my waistband, with a T-shirt, Hawaiian shirt, Golf shirt, etc. wearing shorts, pants and sweats. Never printed. Never revealed. I could have been fishing, hunting, doing yard-work, riding a motorcycle, etc. Active and safe.

....

You make your own holsters, don't you?
 
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phred

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Mar 14, 2010
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North Central Wisconsin, ,
For me, the .45 is a nice blend of 'knock em down the first time' and controllability. The "H ell of a kick" myth for the 1911 is just that. It is not nearly as brutal as a light weight 9mm or a snub .357. There are about a gazillion 1911's out there and for the most part, all parts are interchangeable.

There is enough .45ACP floating around to sink a battleship. You don't need a tool to field strip a 1911 and if you are resourceful, you can do a total tear down without tools. All the old negative myths about the 1911 are moot since the early 90's. I am not very familiar with the workings of a Glock but am told it is a reliable, versatile sidearm as well. There are a bunch of others. All good. All chambered in .45ACP.

There are very small guns like the AMT Backup chambered in .45ACP. Also several very small 1911s and glocks and many others too.

I don't disagree with the 10mm either. The Nudge hunts javelina with one. Over penetration may be a problem though.

What this obsession with 'small' sidearms is about, I am not sure. Hypothetically, I could have carried a full sized 1911 in an IWB holster or just in my waistband, with a T-shirt, Hawaiian shirt, Golf shirt, etc. wearing shorts, pants and sweats. Never printed. Never revealed. I could have been fishing, hunting, doing yard-work, riding a motorcycle, etc. Active and safe.

It could be that no one in the last twenty or so years has seen, met or talked with me un-armed, including LEOs. This is all hypothetical of course and bears no relation to me or real life. All pure fantasy. I have a don't ask, don't tell policy in place.

Point is, that I have proven to myself, using the above hypothetical circumstances, that a 'full sized 1911 can be successfully carried in various ways with no ill consequences. So, I ask myself, (it's OK to talk to yourself, it's even OK to answer yourself, Just don't ever respond to yourself with . . .HUH?) Why in the H-E- double hockey sticks would I put myself in danger, not just myself but my family too, by being under gunned when so many much more appropriate choices are available.

That is why I do not carry a 9mm or lesser round. I do understand the argument for a small gun for small hands but there are now even 1911s made specifically for smaller hands and Kahr 9 or .45 as well as a slew or others. So why put yourself at such a disadvantage.

Also, just to be clear, if it is the only choice possible because of circumstances, economics (doubtful as there are several .45s in the same or near price range) or ergonomics, sure use it, but for God's sake, save up for a real gun. For yourself, your family and your peace of mind.

I most certainly have to agree with Hardballer. Except , that somebody must have lost a battleship a while back because the 45 ACP supply just seemed to dry up. Fortunately I had already stocked-piled enough to sink a PT Boat

It seems as though the need for the small gun/small caliber is circular logic. Somebody wants a "lighter" caliber so it doesn't kick as much, then a smaller gun comes out for it, which ends up kicking more. After shooting 45 ACP and 40 S&W, I feel that the 45 ACP actually has a more "pleasant and controllable" recoil. While I haven't shot every 9mm or 380 on the market, I've shot enough of them to know that the 45 ACP is not, by any means, uncontrollable. A controllable gun depends upon many things besides the caliber, but gun weight, grip size and structure certainly are big factors. And when push comes to shove, which is how I think of the 45 ACP recoil, I am already starting out with a .451 hole before it has a chance to mushroom.

I have had quite a few friends shoot my 45 ACP 1911 and remark that it was not as "bad" as they thought it would be, in fact, most found it quite pleasant to shoot.

If I am going to put in the time, effort and financial resources to learn how to shoot a handgun well, I certainly want a gun that will give me the best opportunity (read - odds) to defend myself and family. I also realize "to each his/her own", (in other words, I'll respect your opiinion) so if you want to bring a pea-shooter to a gun fight, that is not my problem. Good Luck!
 

dangerousman

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I'll play the devil's advocate and suggest that to a certain extent the caliber of firearm one is willing to carry is inversely proportional to one's confidence in shooting ability.

The most deadly shooters do not feel under-armed with a .22 long rifle handgun. And they are not.
 
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