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.380 as a defensive caliber?

phred

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Mar 14, 2010
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North Central Wisconsin, ,
I'll play the devil's advocate and suggest that to a certain extent the caliber of firearm one is willing to carry is inversely proportional to one's confidence in shooting ability.

The most deadly shooters do not feel under-armed with a .22 long rifle handgun. And they are not.

I sure hope you can backup that inverse proportion. IMHO, the better shooter will opt for the largest impact that he/she can carry comfortably because they know the limitations of the smaller impacts.

When I put the 22 LR conversion on my 1911, my group size, rate of fire and confidence do not change much, if at all. What greatly changes is the size of the holes. Now, which one would I rather have in gun fight?

(Need I even have to ask that?)
 

hardballer

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I think most are missing the point here. First, most people out there are not "the most deadly shooters" and are lucky to hit the blue side of a red barn. Those who can hit the ten ring, good for you. My point is that for most people, the odds are stacked against them. Even with a proper caliber.

Sooooooooo my point is that the average and even above average person is at a distinct disadvantage with a .22. I am not arguing that a .22 will not shoot. It will push a hunk of lead down range. I just would rather it be a bigazz hunk of lead.

The .22 is a great little purse or glove box gun. If you wanted to shoot someone in the eye at close range, and I'm not saying that you could but it just is not a good defensive weapon of choice when there are so many other small sized big caliber guns out there. Not having the money isn't a good excuse because there are large caliber guns for the same money or a little bit more.

You'd better be a dam good shot with your tiny .22 because a drunk, crack addict, meth head will eat your .22 lead by the dozen and still advance close enough to plunge his butter knife into your ear. Great little show and scare guns but it is like throwing rocks at a rhino.

So when that hunk of lead reaches it's intended target, I, personally, would appreciate some damage being done. As a matter of fact, I would appreciate a situation stopping event. Short of that, I would be selling my none lethal, inadequate .22 squirrel gun and buying a proper handgun with a proper chambering. .45ACP would do nicely. The proper tool for the job at hand.


I'll play the devil's advocate and suggest that to a certain extent the caliber of firearm one is willing to carry is inversely proportional to one's confidence in shooting ability.

The most deadly shooters do not feel under-armed with a .22 long rifle handgun. And they are not.
 
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phred

Regular Member
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North Central Wisconsin, ,
The below link is an article on Terminal Balistics many of you may find interesting. It is written by a battlefield surgeon named Martin L. Fackler

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

From the article above:

Summary for Combat Pistol rounds.

* Large calibre bullets are more effective than Medium calibre bullets, including high velocity rounds such as the .40 S&W, 10mm Auto and .357magnum.
* A heavier pistol bullet will perform better than a lighter one. Ideally select rounds of at least 200gr.
* Choose the highest velocity cartridge loading in that bullet weight that you can handle.
* Use expanding ammo of a proven performance. Revolvers and Derringers can often be loaded with more efficient soft or wide mouthed rounds that would not feed through an automatic.
* Don't be misled by muzzle energies or % efficiencies.
* Learn some anatomy and where to place your bullets.
* Remember – it's your life.

Thanks Captain
 

hardballer

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
West Coast of Wisconsin
From the article above:

Summary for Combat Pistol rounds.

* Large calibre bullets are more effective than Medium calibre bullets, including high velocity rounds such as the .40 S&W, 10mm Auto and .357magnum.
* A heavier pistol bullet will perform better than a lighter one. Ideally select rounds of at least 200gr.
* Choose the highest velocity cartridge loading in that bullet weight that you can handle.
* Use expanding ammo of a proven performance. Revolvers and Derringers can often be loaded with more efficient soft or wide mouthed rounds that would not feed through an automatic.
* Don't be misled by muzzle energies or % efficiencies.
* Learn some anatomy and where to place your bullets.
* Remember – it's your life.

Thanks Captain


Thanks Phred, Just what I mean.

The much maligned .45ACP, they've tried to improve it, they've plus p'd it. They even replaced it and Still, there is something about 230 grains of copper coated lead, .451 diameter, flying at the target at 830 feet per second. This is a punch in the forehead or chest of about 350 ft-lbs of energy and that's at 25 yards. With hardball, it punches a 1/2 inch hole through it's target. With an expanding round, the wound channel is considerably larger. A .45ACP bullet will penetrate a pine tree up to 6" from 25'.
I like that.
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Thanks Phred, Just what I mean.

The much maligned .45ACP, they've tried to improve it, they've plus p'd it. They even replaced it and Still, there is something about 230 grains of copper coated lead, .451 diameter, flying at the target at 830 feet per second. This is a punch in the forehead or chest of about 350 ft-lbs of energy and that's at 25 yards. With hardball, it punches a 1/2 inch hole through it's target. With an expanding round, the wound channel is considerably larger. A .45ACP bullet will penetrate a pine tree up to 6" from 25'.
I like that.

Cor Bon +P 165gr. fly at 1250fps. and push at 573ft/lbs. It might not be as much lead, but the extra speed and power are nice.
I don't know if I could ever sum up why I fell in love with 1911 guns... I can't wait for my next one (Kimber again for sure)...
I don't carry my 9mm a lot any more, but I do feel very safe with it as well though.
 

Captain Nemo

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Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Sounds like many of you should be packin' the "Judge". Three rounds of 260 grain jacketed hollow point Buffalo Bore .45 Long Colt @ 1450fps and 2 alternate rounds of 3 inch .410 magnum containing 5 pellets of 00 buck shot. I might if it came with a sling.

"Different strokes for different folks".
"Put 'em where it counts. Remember a near miss may be fatal------ to you". Nemo
 

dangerousman

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I sure hope you can backup that inverse proportion. IMHO, the better shooter will opt for the largest impact that he/she can carry comfortably because they know the limitations of the smaller impacts.

When I put the 22 LR conversion on my 1911, my group size, rate of fire and confidence do not change much, if at all. What greatly changes is the size of the holes. Now, which one would I rather have in gun fight?

(Need I even have to ask that?)

I said nothing about what the best shooters will "opt for."

People on here have been saying that they would not carry anything less than a .45ACP or a 9mm or a .380, etc. Everyone has a cut-off point below which they feel they're carrying too weak of a caliber.

I suggested that the best and most confident shooters would be willing to go down to 22LR, fully aware of the "limitations of the small impacts" but confident in their ability to compensate for those smaller impacts by placing them where it counts, and when it counts.

Hey, if someone feels they have to have a .45 ACP, that's fine with me. "A good man always knows his limitations."
 

dangerousman

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I think most are missing the point here. First, most people out there are not "the most deadly shooters" and are lucky to hit the blue side of a red barn. Those who can hit the ten ring, good for you. My point is that for most people, the odds are stacked against them. Even with a proper caliber.

That's my point too. Exactly. Their hope is that their opponent is even more incompetent and they might get lucky.
 

phred

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Messages
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I suppose dangerousman, you can hide behind the phrase:

I'll play the devil's advocate....

but your words
is willing to carry
is not really any different than my words
will opt for

This whole thing about using 22 LR is a moot issue. The issue of using 22 LR should not even be considered for self defense unless there is no other choice. Think back to how many center-fire rounds have either been a FTF or FTE and then think about the same FTF or FTE with 22 LR. IMHO 22LR is unreliable in a defensive situation. Don't get me wrong. The 22LR is a dangerous weapon and may just be the caliber of choice for some "back-of-the head assassins".

Please do not suggest anyone using a caliber larger than a 22LR is "compensating" for something.

"A good man always knows his limitations." I agree, but I also think a good man knows the limitations of what his tools (guns and ammo) will do and acts accordingly.

As Hardballer said
The proper tool for the job at hand.
 

Captain Nemo

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Seems interesting that with all the discussions we have been having (strange also in that there has been no cussing and name callng) on the best cartridge for personal defense that certain calibers keep surfacing as a standard .38special .45ACP, 45 Colt to mention a few. I have a substantial number of firearms. If I was told I could only keep four of them I would choose: Ruger 10/22 .22LR caliber, Remington 742 Woodmaster 30-06 caliber, Webley MKVI .45ACP, Remington Model 870 12Gauge. With those 4 firearms I would be prepared to take on anything that walks and crawls on the face of the earth. In some cases they may not be the optimum firearm but they would get the job done. In addition, ammo for them is available in every state in the U.S. and nearly every country in the world.
 

hardballer

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Seems interesting that with all the discussions we have been having (strange also in that there has been no cussing and name callng) on the best cartridge for personal defense that certain calibers keep surfacing as a standard .38special .45ACP, 45 Colt to mention a few. I have a substantial number of firearms. If I was told I could only keep four of them I would choose: Ruger 10/22 .22LR caliber, Remington 742 Woodmaster 30-06 caliber, Webley MKVI .45ACP, Remington Model 870 12Gauge. With those 4 firearms I would be prepared to take on anything that walks and crawls on the face of the earth. In some cases they may not be the optimum firearm but they would get the job done. In addition, ammo for them is available in every state in the U.S. and nearly every country in the world.
Curious but those are the very same calibers I would choose as well. Marlin model 60 .22 LR-semi auto-mag fed, Remington 700 bolt action 30-06, Mossberg 12 gauge, And AMT 1911 .45ACP. Molon Labe'
 

phred

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Curious but those are the very same calibers I would choose as well. Marlin model 60 .22 LR-semi auto-mag fed, Remington 700 bolt action 30-06, Mossberg 12 gauge, And AMT 1911 .45ACP. Molon Labe'

Wow! Remington 870 12 gauge, Remington 700 30-06, Ruger 10/22 and SA 1911 45 ACP would be my choices from the vault. But sure hope I can keep more than 4.

Dare I say great minds think alike or would that be inviting trouble?
 

hardballer

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West Coast of Wisconsin
Wow! Remington 870 12 gauge, Remington 700 30-06, Ruger 10/22 and SA 1911 45 ACP would be my choices from the vault. But sure hope I can keep more than 4.

Dare I say great minds think alike or would that be inviting trouble?

Being totally un-biased, I'd have to say that is an accurate assessment.
 

hardballer

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If I could only have one it would be the 12 ga. From bird shot to slugs, no other firearm is as versatile as a shotgun.

Agree 100% I am paraphrasing but I think it was Clint Smith who said the sidearm was there so you could fight your way to a long gun.

Shotgun is the most versatile of all firearms.
 

Deadscott

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Jun 26, 2008
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
380 is fine. Heres my Kel Tec

kelsm.jpg
 
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Shotgun

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Aug 23, 2006
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Madison, Wisconsin, USA
The Kel-Tec PA3T is one ugly gun. Looks like a cheap toy. Crudely finished, if "finished" is even a word you can use to describe it.

That said, I have one that looks just like the one above, and it has loaded, chambered, fired, and ejected perfectly every time. Dead on target too. Therefore, it is also a thing of beauty. My only complaint, and it is minor, is that due to rough edges that I haven't bothered to smooth it does leave one's trigger finger sore after 30-50 rounds. It is definitely in the category of "utilitarian guns." It has nearly nonexistent sights, yet shoots to the point of aim with an accuracy that has surprised all who have shot mine. Out to 10-15 feet it could be reasonably effective, and most shootings occur well within that range. Can slip it into a shirt pocket and forget it's there because it weighs only 8 oz or so. I use it as a last ditch BUG in CC land.
 

jamesisel

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Mar 31, 2010
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Location
Milwaukee ,WI
Wouldn't a 9mm XD sub compact be a good CC/pocket carry/ankle BUG?

I don't know anything about that particular piece, but all the 9mm concealed carry pieces I've seen were considerably bulkier than .380s. Practically all the nines I've seen I wouldn't call subcompact, but rather just compact. The sole exception to this would be the PF9. That's the only nine I've seen that's thin enough to where it could be conceivably considered subcompact rather than just compact.

I have a Taurus PT709 SLIM (9mm) and I think its pretty small.It's about the same size as a bersa 380. Paid about $380 for it. I'm a skinny guy and have no problems concealing in basketball shorts and an A shirt.

http://gunblast.com/Taurus-PT709.htm
 
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