• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

.380 as a defensive caliber?

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Perhaps the best defense is a good offense

It seems that for every individual that has an obsession with all that is small their are others who believe that only bigger is better. The .22 long rifle has quite a long history of being an impressive offensive weapon.

Here is a great article on the Beretta Models 70/71 used by Israeli Mossad and Israeli Sky Marshals
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

Also suppressed Ruger MKII and High Standard HDM have been in U.S. military service and are still used by the CIA, Navy Seals, USMC Force Recon, and others.

Another nice article from 1977 about the mob using the little .22 LR
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,914890,00.html

So it seems that although not the best defensive choice I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the .22 LR. If in a time of need I would be thankful for whatever tool I had to defend what was needed and if that tool was only a .22 LR then I would employ it as effectively as I could.

Also considering how quickly people dismiss sub 9mm ammunition in the defensive equation I'll add the .25 ACP, .32ACP, and .380 ACP. If John Moses Browning felt their was a need for these firearms and cartridges by inventing them along with the one and only .45 then who am I to argue.
 
M

McX

Guest
i stepped down from a .40, because of the bulk carry size, to a sweet little 9 mm. but shotgun done got me hooked, and i dream of a 1911 style 10 mm. i settled on the 10mm because it's the baddest one in the valley! but for skulking around these days it's the .40 or the 9mm.

added on edit; i hear the .22 mag is a nasty little hole puncher too, not to be underestimated.
 
Last edited:

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
added on edit; i hear the .22 mag is a nasty little hole puncher too, not to be underestimated.

Great point. The .22 WMR should also make the list considering its availability in numerous revolvers and now powering the new Kel-Tec PMR-30 semi-automatic handgun. Also the 9x18 mm Makarov considering its availability in numerous eastern block handguns imported into the U.S. Now only if they had been invented by JMB....
 

Passive101

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
223
Location
, ,
I have a Ruger LCP in .380 and it works wonderful. Very small and compact. Jumpy little thing to shoot, but it's smaller then my Glock 26 and less powerful. However if I didn't have it I'd be unarmed sometimes.

There isn't really a good comparison from the .380 to my 10mm though ;)
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
Probably my favorite gun in my collection is a Chrome High Standard Sentine , 9 shot .22LR revolver with rosewood grips. It shoots like a "house afire" and never misses. Accuracy is excellent. I shoot Remington Cyclone high speed lead hollowpoint ammo in it and it will penetrate a 1 1/2 pine block at 25 yards. I have the proof. In the right hands this is not a child's gopher shooter. My only objection is it is a little larger than I want in a carry gun.
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Caliber doesn't matter if you don't hit the target

Hi,

I have heard many people comment that the .380 is 1/2 of a 9mm and the 9mm is a great weapon to frighten a European in a gun discussions, but is not optimal to stop an American bad guy on dope who is coming at you. That is why the feds expression is "two taps to the chest". One "tap" with a 9mm may not be enough. I guess that means that the optimal condition is 4 taps to the chest with a .380 (although I suspect that two would be enough).

Dirty Harry was right. Having said that, except for the .44 Magnum, the .45 ACP is the best chance you have to achieve "one shot - one kill" performance.

Marksmanship matters. Where you place a defensive round makes all the difference in the world. A .380 on center mass is more effective than a 9mm on the left shoulder. However, if you are not a good shot, a .45 ACP in the shoulder will cause a man to fall down (and perhaps bleed to death) while a .22 or anything less than a .38 Special would not cause him to fall down at all in his attack on you.
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
.22 caliber Remington Cyclone lead hollowpoint, High Standard Sentinel revolver, standing off-hand, 25 yards. 12 X 12 X 1/1/2 wooden block.
 

Attachments

  • board 1.jpg
    board 1.jpg
    37.2 KB · Views: 69
  • board2.jpg
    board2.jpg
    39.3 KB · Views: 65

Adamantpatriot64

New member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
7
Location
Central Wiscosin
My opinion about .380s

I personally won't carry a .380. My caliber of choice is the 9mm with large ammo capacity. However if that is all you can afford or you want something very small to carry go for it. Or in the future (PURELY HYPOTHETICAL) we have Conceal and Carry and you want a very small non-perturbing weapon a .380 is the way to go, plus it's better than nothing. It will make someone sit down if you draw on them. That is my opinion. A firearm is always better than no firearm.

SIG P226 9mm for the Win.

Patriots Prevail!
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Dirty Harry was right. Having said that, except for the .44 Magnum, the .45 ACP is the best chance you have to achieve "one shot - one kill" performance.

I would be more inclined to pay attention to Dirty Harry's thoughts on "opinions" or the kind of people who "work in personnel" than I would his thoughts on ammunition.

A fundamental problem with your statement is that it is not supported by empirical data. Marshall & Sanow-- the guys who have been collecting data on one-shot stops (not "kills") for the past couple of decades-- will tell you that the .357 magnum has been and continues to be the long-standing king of one-shot stops among pistol caliber guns. And they will also say that both the .45 ACP and .357 magnum (along with the .40 S&W and a couple other loads) have a better history of one-shot stops than does the .44 magnum. The .44 magnum is more likely to penetrate clean through a human and waste energy in doing so. Bigger is not necessarily better.

And just recommending ".45 ACP" --or any favorite caliber-- is similar to choosing tires for your vehicle because they are size "P225/60R16" while completely ignoring the design and other qualities. .45 ACP has a one-shot stop history ranging from 57% for 230 grain hardball, to 96% for 185 grain Remington Golden Sabre. So saying .45 ACP, or any other caliber is best at one-shot stops, isn't saying much if you are going to omit bullet design.

Even then I would not select nor recommend selection of ammunition on the basis that one load has a history of say, 93% one-shot stops, compared to another that has a 85% history. The number of variables are so great that a few percentage points are not significant. There is much more to consider when making a choice of ammunition and caliber than just this one factor. If you want to argue percentage points, then I will suggest that the most important factor is the person carrying the gun, and that accounts for 98% of everything; gun and ammo selection and all the rest is perhaps 2%.
 
M

McX

Guest
currently on 9mm, and .40, but dream nightly now of 10 mm. .45? they still make those?
 

GlockMeisterG21

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
637
Location
Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA
The more and more I research and think on it I believe it's a combination of who lands the first hit and amount of trauma caused. If you put a bullet into a "normal" person the chances that he will just give up and die are pretty fair. That's why landing the first hit is important. When we start talking about someone with training, on drugs, or just simply determined then it comes down to trauma. We've all seen or heard stories of seemingly "average" people fighting trough incredible amounts of pain to accomplish their goal. If you cause enough trauma to disabling zones then it takes most of those factors out of the equation. So if you can train to be fast and land that first shot while causing a lot of trauma then I think you're chances of surviving the encounter skyrocket.

I don't mean to turn this into another 9mm vs. .45acp argument but this is the best way I've heard them described. I was asked "A 9mm hollow point can expand to about the size of a .45 hardball, barring it does not strike bone or fail to expand, right?" I replied "Yes". "Then while a 9mm can expand, a .45 will never shrink. It can only get bigger, thus doing more damage." Btw, I still like 9mm and will be picking one up soon. Pics to come :)

I've been asked many times what I think the best caliber is. Here's what I believe is the best answer. The best caliber is the biggest one you can handle comfortably and accurately. Having the biggest and best gun in the world won't do sh!t if you can't shoot it.
 
Last edited:

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Let's do the math:

A 9mm bullet has a diameter of .354 inch and a .45 ACP is .452. I find it difficult to believe that simply punching a hole that is under 1/10th of an inch wider into a body is going to make a discernible difference. Physicians are unable to tell the difference between gunshots from a 9mm and a .45 ACP. If there is a difference in effect in favor of .45 ACP, it may have more to do with bullet weight than diameter. 9mm round are typically in the 115 - 147 grain range, whereas 45 ACP bullets are in the 180 - 230 grain range. A 230 grain bullet is twice the weight of a 115 grain bullet representing a more significant difference than a the difference in diameter.

The better 9mm rounds expand to diameters of .62 - .66 inch. In tests I found 9mm Winchester Ranger expanded to .707 in. and 9mm Federal Hydra-Shok expanded to .704 inch. Let me remind you that a 12 ga. shotgun slug is .73 in in diameter-- but I think most of us will agree that there is a considerable difference in getting hit by a 115 or 147 grain slug that expands to almost the width of a shotgun slug, and getting hit by an actual shotgun slug that weighs 437.5 grains (1 oz) even if they were moving at the same velocity. (A typical 9mm round will have a muzzle velocity around 1100 feet per second and a typical foster type slug will drop to around that velocity at 75 yards.)

So draw your own conclusions. Personally, I don't believe that the difference in diameter between 9mm and .45 ACP contributes anything of significance. Anyone want to compare results of a tiny 55 grain .223 bullet versus those big ol' .45 ACP and then tell me that bullet diameter makes the difference?

From the standpoint of ballistics there are too many variables to draw some have some of the absolute convictions some people seem to have. The one thing that isn't a variable is that a well-placed shot is going to be more effective than a shot not as well-placed. Damage to the CNS is the most effective, followed by damage to the circulatory system, followed by destroying large chunks of flesh.
 

markofwisconsin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
13
Location
Janesville, Wisconsin
.380

Although I am new to the forum, and nearly 50 years of age I have owned allot of firearms.

Personally I don't know much about the .380 first hand as for stopping power on a person. My experience is with two new Walther PPK's in this caliber. In my experience these were the most jamming, hard to clear pistols I have ever had in my life. Sure they are small and compact, but with all types of ammo hp, and fmj, these were a jamming nightmare. These two pistols were brand new, and super clean, and oiled, with not too much oil. I sold them both as soon as I had the chance.

For me, I am more than happy with J frame S&W's centennial, body guard and chiefs special, which I own. Old school yes, but the 38 special +P with a Federal 125JHP, gives me plenty of confidence. 5 shots for sure, instead of maybe, with the little Walther PPK.

Sorry but I don't feel anymore comfortable with my 9mm Browning HP, with 124gr. Remington Golden Saber BJH, than my model 65 or 19 S&W, or my GP 100 Ruger in a .357 magnum. :cool::cool::cool:
 
Last edited:
Top