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AB144 has risen from the dead!

oc4ever

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
280
Location
, ,
new holsters for California

Why would a holster with a flap over the gun concealing it (like the old military style ) and a key in a lock securing the flap not qualify as a locked container? It adds a one second to release and draw, but I see a business opportunity here making "California-144" holsters. I don't see anything in the law that says that the key has to be removable........anyone want to go into business with me? you could still carry the ammo like before ready to load quickly. The" key" would just lock the quick flap/cover release. Turn one way and the key is removable, leave in the middle position , the key won't fall out, turn in the opposite direction and a spring loaded flap/cover releases cleanly. The "key" could just be a small knob, with unique matching unlatching mechanism that is not universal to the holster. Remove the key and a LEO needs a warrant to see what is inside the holster since the gun is not visible(if you do not admit it is a gun, and no law says you have to do that).
 
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Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
LUCC is a completely viable strategy to carry a handgun in California IF you are 1) A US Citizen 2) Generally get around using a motor vehicle.

12025 <--- make concealing a handgun generally illegal.
12026 <--- Offers some exemptions (in your home, place of business)
12026.1 <--- Offers citizens some additional exemptions for To/From/In a "motor vehicle" if in a locked container.
12026.2 <--- Offers yet another list of exemptions these exemptions do not require a motor vehicle be involved but there are destination requirements in addition to a locked container.
12027 <--- Offers OMG yet another list of exemptions Cops, some retired Cops, Guards, Hunters/Fisherman, CCW License holders, Feds, etc all with no locked container requirement

Each section of exemptions is 100% independent of the other sections. In other words, if you meet the requirements for an exemption in 12026.1, you can ignore 12026, 12026.2, 12027 (unless they are specifically cross referenced)

If the only place you ever go is directly to and from a vehicle, your house, and the shooting range, then I suppose LUCC is fine... but if you do normal things, such as, going places to eat meals, or other things not specifically exempted, then it seems that LUCC is not generally legal because it will be a violation of 12025. There is a long list of exceptions, but they don't even come close to forming a general rule allowing LUCC unless I'm misreading it or missing something.

If you go directly from your vehicle to a place, and if you're going directly from the place to your vehicle, you're okay, but it seems to me that there is no provision that would allow you to have a LUCC in a general place, or while doing things, while you are not moving directly to or from your vehicle.

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Section 12031.



12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.



12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.
(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.


12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(a) (1) (A) Any peace officer, listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, whether active or honorably
retired, other duly appointed peace officers, honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, other honorably
retired peace officers who during the course and scope of their
employment as peace officers were authorized to, and did, carry
firearms, full-time paid peace officers of other states and the
federal government who are carrying out official duties while in
California, or any person summoned by any of these officers to assist
in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is
actually engaged in assisting that officer. Any peace officer
described in this paragraph who has been honorably retired shall be
issued an identification certificate by the law enforcement agency
from which the officer has retired. The issuing agency may charge a
fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the agency
in issuing certificates pursuant to this subdivision. As used in
this section and Section 12031, the term "honorably retired" includes
all peace officers who have qualified for, and have accepted, a
service or disability retirement. For purposes of this section and
Section 12031, the term "honorably retired" does not include an
officer who has agreed to a service retirement in lieu of
termination.
(B) Any officer, except an officer listed in Section 830.1 or
830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of
Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have an
endorsement on the identification certificate stating that the
issuing agency approves the officer's carrying of a concealed
firearm.
(C) No endorsement or renewal endorsement issued pursuant to
paragraph (2) shall be effective unless it is in the format set forth
in subparagraph (D), except that any peace officer listed in
subdivision (f) of Section 830.2 or in subdivision (c) of Section
830.5, who is retired between January 2, 1981, and on or before
December 31, 1988, and who is authorized to carry a concealed firearm
pursuant to this section, shall not be required to have an
endorsement in the format set forth in subparagraph (D) until the
time of the issuance, on or after January 1, 1989, of a renewal
endorsement pursuant to paragraph (2).
(D) A certificate issued pursuant to this paragraph for persons
who are not listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of
Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 or for persons
retiring after January 1, 1981, shall be in the following format: it
shall be on a 2×3 inch card, bear the photograph of the retiree, the
retiree's name, date of birth, the date that the retiree retired,
name and address of the agency from which the retiree retired, have
stamped on it the endorsement "CCW Approved" and the date the
endorsement is to be renewed. A certificate issued pursuant to this
paragraph shall not be valid as identification for the sale,
purchase, or transfer of a firearm.
(E) For purposes of this section and Section 12031, "CCW" means
"carry concealed weapons."
(2) A retired peace officer, except an officer listed in Section
830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall
petition the issuing agency for the renewal of his or her privilege
to carry a concealed firearm every five years. An honorably retired
peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of
Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 who retired prior
to January 1, 1981, shall not be required to obtain an endorsement
from the issuing agency to carry a concealed firearm. The agency from
which a peace officer is honorably retired may, upon initial
retirement of that peace officer, or at any time subsequent thereto,
deny or revoke for good cause the retired officer's privilege to
carry a concealed firearm. A peace officer who is listed in Section
830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have
his or her privilege to carry a concealed firearm denied or revoked
by having the agency from which the officer retired stamp on the
officer's identification certificate "No CCW privilege."
(3) An honorably retired peace officer who is listed in
subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 and authorized to carry concealed
firearms by this subdivision shall meet the training requirements of
Section 832 and shall qualify with the firearm at least annually. The
individual retired peace officer shall be responsible for
maintaining his or her eligibility to carry a concealed firearm. The
Department of Justice shall provide subsequent arrest notification
pursuant to Section 11105.2 regarding honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 to the agency
from which the officer has retired.
(b) The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person as merchandise by a person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing, importing, wholesaling, repairing, or dealing in
firearms and who is licensed to engage in that business or the
authorized representative or authorized agent of that person while
engaged in the lawful course of the business.
(c) Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Marine
Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, when on duty, or
organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive
those weapons from the United States or this state.
(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person by duly authorized
military or civil organizations while parading, or the members
thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their
respective organizations.
(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.
(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.
(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a
licensed common carrier or an authorized agent or employee thereof
when transported in conformance with applicable federal law.
(i) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they
reside, honorably retired federal officers or agents of federal law
enforcement agencies, including, but not limited to, the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, the United States
Customs Service, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the Drug Enforcement
Administration, the United States Border Patrol, and officers or
agents of the Internal Revenue Service who were authorized to carry
weapons while on duty, who were assigned to duty within the state for
a period of not less than one year, or who retired from active
service in the state.
Retired federal officers or agents shall provide the sheriff with
certification from the agency from which they retired certifying
their service in the state, the nature of their retirement, and
indicating the agency's concurrence that the retired federal officer
or agent should be accorded the privilege of carrying a concealed
firearm.
Upon that approval, the sheriff shall issue a permit to the
retired federal officer or agent indicating that he or she may carry
a concealed firearm in accordance with this subdivision. The permit
shall be valid for a period not exceeding five years, shall be
carried by the retiree while carrying a concealed firearm, and may be
revoked for good cause.
The sheriff of the county in which the retired federal officer or
agent resides may require recertification prior to a permit renewal,
and may suspend the privilege for cause. The sheriff may charge a fee
necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the county.
(j) The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to
carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3
(commencing with Section 12050).
 
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Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
... (post edited)
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
...

ANY lawful purpose, Transporting a firearm in a locked case is a lawful purpose. So is Open carrying a lawful purpose.

That exception only applies directly to or from a motor vehicle. Open carrying won't be a lawful purpose if and when AB144 takes effect, except where discharge of firearms is legal. Also, having a firearm in a locked case (unless I'm missing something,) is generally a violation of 12025, and is not generally lawful, except when transported between specific areas, in a vehicle, or otherwise specifically exempted from 12025 by 12026.

By contrast with LUCC on foot, transporting guns with barrels over 16 inches, (not designed to be interchanged with shorter barrels), on foot appears generally legal. One could transport such a gun between places, and it would be generally legal as long as you did not go to a place specifically prohibiting guns (like a government building), and one does not need to rely on a list of allowed activities like transporting, "directly to the shooting range" in a locked case or one of the other two dozen or so specifically authorized exceptions to the prohibition on carrying a concealed handgun.
 
Last edited:

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
Why would a holster with a flap over the gun concealing it (like the old military style ) and a key in a lock securing the flap not qualify as a locked container? It adds a one second to release and draw, but I see a business opportunity here making "California-144" holsters. I don't see anything in the law that says that the key has to be removable........anyone want to go into business with me? you could still carry the ammo like before ready to load quickly. The" key" would just lock the quick flap/cover release. Turn one way and the key is removable, leave in the middle position , the key won't fall out, turn in the opposite direction and a spring loaded flap/cover releases cleanly. The "key" could just be a small knob, with unique matching unlatching mechanism that is not universal to the holster. Remove the key and a LEO needs a warrant to see what is inside the holster since the gun is not visible(if you do not admit it is a gun, and no law says you have to do that).

Locked container open carry might work (LUOC?) if AB144 would not apply to openly carried guns in a locked case (transparent case?), but if it concealed the nature of the contents, it runs the risk of going foul of 12025 if it does not meet a specific exemption in 12026.

One interesting thing potentially about Locked-Unloaded-Open-Carry is that transport in a locked case on foot appears to provide an exception under 626.9.
 
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demnogis

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
911
Location
Orange County, California, USA
Still no word on AB144?

Also, it has be discussed and dissected ad-naseum... AB144 with it's long list of specific definitions and scenarios works to one end -> "lawfully" disarm the law-abiding. Only the few within the exemptions and law enforcement will be able to carry, therefore perpetuating the ideology that only cops and criminals will carry.

Mind you, this is the same legislature that wants to implement specific pricing for tuition based on the color of your skin.
 

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
Yeah, it's not looking good. Maybe Jerry Brown is busy editing a scathing veto. I had hope he'd do the right thing, but with 36 hours remaining, I think AB 144 will become law without being signed.
 

camsoup

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Red Bluff, California, USA
How is this for an exemption??

26389. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the open
carrying of an unloaded handgun if all of the following apply:
(a) The handgun is carried on a public street or in a public place
in a prohibited area of an unincorporated area of a county or city
and county that is less than 200,000 persons according to the most
recent federal decennial census.
(b) The person carrying that handgun is listed as the registered
owner of that handgun with the Department of Justice pursuant to
Section 11106.
(c) The area where that person is carrying that handgun is not a
public street or a public place in a prohibited area of an
unincorporated territory of a county where that unincorporated
territory is completely bordered by an incorporated city.

Here is a list of counties in CA with a population less than 200,000 people.

Shasta 184,247
Imperial 183,029
El Dorado 182,019
Kings 156,289
Madera 153,655
Napa 138,917
Humboldt 133,400
Sutter 99,154
Nevada 98,680
Mendocino 90,289
Yuba 72,900
Lake 64,053
Tehama 63,100
San Benito 58,388
Tuolumne 56,086
Siskiyou 46,010
Calaveras 45,870
Amador 38,022
Lassen 35,889
Del Norte 29,673
Glenn 29,434
Colusa 22,206
Plumas 20,428
Mariposa 18,192
Inyo 18,110
Trinity 13,898
Mono 13,617
Modoc 9,777
Sierra 3,303
Alpine 1,189

Now for the most part, these counties already have large areas of non prohibited areas of unincorporated territory where LOC or UOC IS already legal (still legal even if AB144 becomes law). But if we do happen to find ourselves in prohibited areas in these counties, and that area is not completely surrounded by incorporated land, its looks like we can still UOC, that would include any county/federal parks/areas where firearms themselves are not prohibited but simply discharge of those firearms is prohibited. It seems to me that even if AB144 becomes law, You/I would still be able to UOC (handguns registered to us) in places like Yosemite National Park, Lassen National Park, and Whiskeytown National Recreation areas. Guns are allowed, but discharge is generally not (of course we still have to stay out of federal buildings). Most National parks are not completely bordered by incorporated lands.

This appears to be logical to me.... thoughts?
 

EXTREMEOPS1

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
248
Location
Escondido CA
Well yet another reason to start carrying our rifles and shotguns

Yeah, it's not looking good. Maybe Jerry Brown is busy editing a scathing veto. I had hope he'd do the right thing, but with 36 hours remaining, I think AB 144 will become law without being signed.
For self defense...and yes I know I took advice from Cond three and have decided my "Johnny Seven" is now the way to go lol (is my grenade launcher legal or should I leave it in the truck and just go with the rifle pistol combo?).....plus the rifle and shotgun are in the truck just in case the bg don't take me seriously.
 

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