America's one choice in 2016.................

[Jeff. State]

77zach: My idea with this not voting thing hinges on the politicians KNOWING exactly why 50-60-70 percent of the American people didnt participate. It's their last chance to reform or be removed by means other than voting. We have lost faith in them and they better restore it quickly.

 

[OC for ME]

77zach: My idea with this not voting thing hinges on the politicians KNOWING exactly why 50-60-70 percent of the American people didnt participate. It's their last chance to reform or be removed by means other than voting. We have lost faith in them and they better restore it quickly.

:uhoh:

 

[The Truth]

77zach: My idea with this not voting thing hinges on the politicians KNOWING exactly why 50-60-70 percent of the American people didnt participate. It's their last chance to reform or be removed by means other than voting. We have lost faith in them and they better restore it quickly.

I just want to clarify. Your philosophy on not voting derives from your intention to resolve issues with politicians by forcibly removing them from office, and you believe low voter turnout will really have any effect on said politician? You do realize that politicians operate on what their constituents want, not what doesn't get voted for...

I'm pretty open about not voting, but I give no logical reason other than I don't want to. Your statement above is somewhat troubling however, as it seems to imply a misunderstanding in regards to how voting actually works.

 

[georg jetson]

I think what Charles is saying, and at least what I am saying, "Let us not cut off our arm for a splinter in our finger". IOW let's not fall deeper into the rabbit hole, which is exactly what will happen if Billary is elected and she appoints a anti gun judge in place of a so called conservative judge. When that happens will everybody feel proud of their protest of electing the lesser evil.

If the R party runs someone that is anti-freedom, then it is their own falt again that they don't get my vote. When Hillary gets to the White House, will everyone feel proud of their, "ill vote for anyone the R party runs becauee its the lesser of 2 evils", attitude.

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

I couldn't disagree more, Billary would appoint a anti judge and the balance will change, guns will be gone from the US forever. That is a very sobering fact. There is no doubt where she stands, and no doubt that one or more elderly conservative judges will be stepping down. If you want to lose all your guns, because you are butt hurt, and you have a right to be, you will screw the rest of those who want to continue to work towards keeping what we have, and possibly getting back to where we were.

But hey if that helps you sleep at night it is your vote to do with what you want. Just don't whimper when it backfires on you.

I sleep very well. Every election I take time out of my schedule to give the system a chance. Every election I vote only for candidates I believe are honorable and will help the people. A lot of the time there are very few if any I can vote for. But at least I'll never have to explain to my kid that the I helped put some bad man in power because of some misguided team identification delirium. Sis boom bah gooooooooooo Elephants! Donkey's suck!
We WILL lose more rights. But it won't be because of people like me, it will be the people that are duped into the R vs D scam.

 

[Primus]

I think what Charles is saying, and at least what I am saying, "Let us not cut off our arm for a splinter in our finger". IOW let's not fall deeper into the rabbit hole, which is exactly what will happen if Billary is elected and she appoints a anti gun judge in place of a so called conservative judge. When that happens will everybody feel proud of their protest of electing the lesser evil.

Well said. +1

 

[Jeff. State]

I just want to clarify. Your philosophy on not voting derives from your intention to resolve issues with politicians by forcibly removing them from office, and you believe low voter turnout will really have any effect on said politician? You do realize that politicians operate on what their constituents want, not what doesn't get voted for...

I'm pretty open about not voting, but I give no logical reason other than I don't want to. Your statement above is somewhat troubling however, as it seems to imply a misunderstanding in regards to how voting actually works.

Voting ISNT working. Period

Whether it's R or D, they do not do what those who voted them in want. Again they must get the message that lack of voter turnout is directly due to lack of GOOD FAITH "representation".

Sorry if it isn't making sense. I guess it is trying to come up with just one more "solution" to the current problem when there really isn't anything other left than a 2nd Revoltuion.

 

[utbagpiper]

77zach: My idea with this not voting thing hinges on the politicians KNOWING exactly why 50-60-70 percent of the American people didnt participate. It's their last chance to reform or be removed by means other than voting. We have lost faith in them and they better restore it quickly.

Politicians already know. They don't care as long as they are in power.

Voting for the best choice (or least offensive choice) available prevents the worst choice from being in power. Do you really think things were better when gun grabbers (including gun grabbing GOP senators) controlled both houses of congress and the white house and passed the scary looking gun ban in '94? Our only salvation on that one was the 10 year sunset.

Voting in the general election helps prevent this.

Even more powerfully, voting in primary elections can help give us real choices in the general election. And lower voter turnout in primary elections means gun owners can exert even more influence.

Back up from there and get involved in the political party of your choice to help pro-RKBA candidates get through the pre-primary process with a credible chance of winning.

This IS working for RKBA/OC as evidenced by the sea-change in gun laws at the State level over the last 25 years.

Charles

 

[georg jetson]

Politicians already know. They don't care as long as they are in power.

Voting for the best choice (or least offensive choice) available prevents the worst choice from being in power. Do you really think things were better when gun grabbers (including gun grabbing GOP senators) controlled both houses of congress and the white house and passed the scary looking gun ban in '94? Our only salvation on that one was the 10 year sunset.

Voting in the general election helps prevent this.

Even more powerfully, voting in primary elections can help give us real choices in the general election. And lower voter turnout in primary elections means gun owners can exert even more influence.

Back up from there and get involved in the political party of your choice to help pro-RKBA candidates get through the pre-primary process with a credible chance of winning.

This IS working for RKBA/OC as evidenced by the sea-change in gun laws at the State level over the last 25 years.

Charles

Lol. The party leaders pick their candidate. It has nothing to do with a valid election process. I saw first hand in 2012 how the R party works in my state.

Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is exactly the rat race they enjoy. It's an infinite loop. The R/D party wins everytime.

 

[utbagpiper]

Voting ISNT working. Period

....

Sorry if it isn't making sense. I guess it is trying to come up with just one more "solution" to the current problem when there really isn't anything other left than a 2nd Revoltuion.

I couldn't disagree any more strongly. Active work in the political and electoral system is working. Look at the change in gun laws over the last 25 years. Most States now make permits to carry readily available at reasonable prices. Five States don't require any permit to carry concealed, and a dozen more have legislation in works this year. As much as many congress-critters would like to impose new federal bans, the election results of 1994, 2000, and even 2014 have most of them scared to do so. We now have a long coveted SCOTUS decision declaring that the constitution does protect an individual RKBA.

Doing the real work to elect pro-RKBA/OC candidates to office is tiresome. It is slow going. But it is part of the eternal vigilance that is the price of liberty.

Some seem to think a jackrabbit approach of waging a quick war will result in liberties. They are wrong. The Revolution wasn't quick. The Civil War was the most costly war our nation ever engaged in. Look around the globe at how most modern revolutions and civil wars work out. Hint: Not well for the typical, freedom-loving citizen; even worse for his wife and children.

The typical, most likely outcome of a revolution is not more freedom, but less.

Only a moron, ignorant fool, or agent provocateur would even suggest a revolution so long as we continue to see progress--however slow, but steady--in the right direction.

Stop agitating for armed violence. That is not the answer and it is not what law-abiding gun owners nor any sane man wants. It is not what this forum is about.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

Lol. The party leaders pick their candidate. It has nothing to do with a valid election process. I saw first hand in 2012 how the R party works in my state.

Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is exactly the rat race they enjoy. It's an infinite loop. The R/D party wins everytime.

Then accept the worst of 2 evils, when that happens tell us how happy you are with the results. I will always take the lesser of 2 evils, I am alive today because I made that choice. Nobody wants to have their chest split open, their heart stopped, rewired and restarted. But that is what was necessary for me to live a little while longer. The best outcome would be a miracle medicine that would have restored me to perfect health without pain or risk. Some of us don't live on fairy tales, but if you have that magic bean, please by all means let us in on the secret.

 

[OC for ME]

Voting ISNT working. Period

Whether it's R or D, they do not do what those who voted them in want. Again they must get the message that lack of voter turnout is directly due to lack of GOOD FAITH "representation".

Sorry if it isn't making sense. I guess it is trying to come up with just one more "solution" to the current problem when there really isn't anything other left than a 2nd Revoltuion.

The worst thing to hear/read is "running unopposed" unless of course the critter running unopposed is to your liking.

Vote!

 

[WalkingWolf]

The worst thing to hear/read is "running unopposed" unless of course the critter running unopposed is to your liking.

Vote!

+1 A politician does not give a damn if you do not vote if your vote would be against her/him. In fact they would probably give you a kiss just before bending you over.

Of course a kiss from Billary would make most people barf...

 

[georg jetson]

Then accept the worst of 2 evils, when that happens tell us how happy you are with the results. I will always take the lesser of 2 evils, I am alive today because I made that choice. Nobody wants to have their chest split open, their heart stopped, rewired and restarted. But that is what was necessary for me to live a little while longer. The best outcome would be a miracle medicine that would have restored me to perfect health without pain or risk. Some of us don't live on fairy tales, but if you have that magic bean, please by all means let us in on the secret.

I would never argue that "lesser of 2 evils" has no merit in general. However, in this case it's being used to keep us forever locked into a 1 party system. There are too many people who realize this and refuse to participate. The only way things can move forward is if the rest of you stop clinging to the R party as if it offers any real solutions. Its just a delay in the inevitable.

You're right. There is no majic bean so... vote your conscience.

 

[77zach]

I would never argue that "lesser of 2 evils" has no merit in general. However, in this case it's being used to keep us forever locked into a 1 party system. There are too many people who realize this and refuse to participate. The only way things can move forward is if the rest of you stop clinging to the R party as if it offers any real solutions. Its just a delay in the inevitable.

You're right. There is no majic bean so... vote your conscience.

I think you are right and so I take a hybrid view. I have voted for state and local R's if they're good. My old state rep didn't believe in state education, property taxes, and wants to do away with all "gun laws" and has been effective in getting pro gun legislation passed. I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries but could not bring myself to vote for Bush or McCain in the last national elections or anyone for national Congress. And I do not believe that Jeb Bush or Rick Perry or Scott Walker represent a lesser enough evil than whatever Demonrat we're presented with, Hitlery or somebody else.

Some of this stems from the fact that I think I have it all figured out on "national security" and war. I think these illegitimate wars and other foreign misadventures are a big, big deal and conservatives are either for them or tolerate them or don't understand what a huge impact it has had and will have in the future. This I can't abide. So while my Congressional R's in this district are definitely the lesser of two evils on a couple of domestic issues (especially on my beloved 2nd amendment) they're as bad or worse on foreign policy than the demonrats.

Not that it matters at all. There are not enough people like me.

 

[Jeff. State]

Only a moron, ignorant fool, or agent provocateur would even suggest a revolution so long as we continue to see progress--however slow, but steady--in the right direction.

Stop agitating for armed violence. That is not the answer and it is not what law-abiding gun owners nor any sane man wants. It is not what this forum is about.

Charles

I'm surprised your continued name calling is tolerated by the mods, charles.

Would you call repeal of the Townsend acts in 1770 "progress-however slow but steady"? I would. There were other concessions made by the Crown as well before hostilities broke out.

Charles do YOU put the founders of this nation in the "moron, ignorant fool, agent provocateur" catagory as well?

If you cant stop misconstruing my words, please refrain from debate. Agitating armed violence? Here are my words.

Sorry if it isn't making sense. I guess it is trying to come up with just one more "solution" to the current problem when there really isn't anything other left than a 2nd Revoltuion.

Like you say about the colonists, I am exhausting all other options!

Last question Charles. Are you posting from "Camp Williams"?

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

I would never argue that "lesser of 2 evils" has no merit in general. However, in this case it's being used to keep us forever locked into a 1 party system. There are too many people who realize this and refuse to participate. The only way things can move forward is if the rest of you stop clinging to the R party as if it offers any real solutions. Its just a delay in the inevitable.

You're right. There is no majic bean so... vote your conscience.

This is exactly right. I would have though that more R fanboys would have seen the light after Bush's boy The Honorable Roberts shoved obamacare down our throats. The fear and hatred of "the other side" is so ingrained by upbringing and media influence people seemed blind to it. It's like asking New England fan's about deflated balls. Nothing can overcome that "home team spirit".

 

[utbagpiper]

I'm surprised your continued name calling is tolerated by the mods, charles.

What name calling? I didn't call you or anyone else any names unless you/they are actually suggesting armed revolution so long as we are making the kind of political progress we are on RKBA/OC.

If the shoe fits....

If it doesn't, don't squeeze into it and then complain about the discomfort.

If you cant stop misconstruing my words, please refrain from debate. Agitating armed violence? Here are my words.

Sorry if it isn't making sense. I guess it is trying to come up with just one more "solution" to the current problem when there really isn't anything other left than a 2nd Revoltuion.

Dear Soldier....We need you here, resisting the only gang of terrorists that poses by far the biggest threat to the security and liberty of the American people: the United States government.

I fixed the highlighting for you and grabbed a bit from one of your posts in another thread. You've made up your mind that armed revolution is the only option left. And you're trying to sucker others into joining you. Either that, or you are an agent provocateur trying to damage the RKBA community.

Last question Charles. Are you posting from "Camp Williams"?

Anyone claiming to be an expert in such things would know full well that Camp Williams is a Utah State National Guard base. The NSA facility you are trying to refer to in a clever way is not located at Camp Williams but is in Bluffdale Utah. The city of Bluffdale, and most of Camp Williams, while near each other are on opposite sides of the county line that separates Utah County from Salt Lake County. But don't let little things like easily verified facts bother you in the least.

Charles

 

[utbagpiper]

This is exactly right. I would have though that more R fanboys would have seen the light after Bush's boy The Honorable Roberts shoved obamacare down our throats.

Fan boys? Hardly. I haven't voted R for president since I was 18 years old and made the youthful mistake of thinking a vote for HW Bush was basically a vote for a third Reagan term. But I enjoy the advantage of living in a GOP-safe State where my vote for President is very unlikely to sway where our electoral votes go.

I live in a swing congressional district. Two years ago, the Democrat held his seat by less than 700 votes cast and thus was able to cast a vote for Pelosi to be Speaker. His prior wins for several elections before that were not quite so tight, but close enough to make clear that individual actions made a difference. This year, we sent a Republican to congress. She happens to be the first black female republican ever. She is far from perfect. And a vote for Boehner is not good. But it is less damaging to my RKBA than is a vote for Pelosi.

Some years I vote FOR the Republican candidate in my congressional district. Other years I vote against the Democrat candidate by marking the box for the candidate most likely to defeat the Democrat.

In our Senate races we did even better a few years back by replacing a RINO, Bob Bennett, with a TEA Party type, Mike Lee during our convention and primary campaigns. RINO Orrin Hatch managed to survive his last election, but I think it was enough of a fight he won't bother running again given his age.

Bottom line, the worst possible option is the worst possible option and voting for the lessor evil or even a decent but imperfect candidate is far better than letting the worst possible candidate waltz to victory over some kind of impotent "protest" non-vote. Getting out and doing some work for a good (if imperfect) candidate is even more effective than waiting for the general election to vote.

Charles

 

[Jeff. State]

But don't let little things like easily verified facts bother you in the least.

Very easily verified Charles, it's on Camp Williams proper. Easily verified with a thousand articles, wikipedia, the NSA's site itself. But hey dont let the "facts" stop you from continuing to putting on a good show.