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CC on private property questions.

Cobra469

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That is why i said I was asking because I couldn't cite any case law. So rather than state it as factual I was trying to find out if anybody else could. When I originally got the impression about being able to carry concealed on private property was about 6 years ago when my employer, had given me written permission to carry in any manner seen fit on his property. Granted our business was not open to the public and i was a member of middle management who worked all hours and weekends. There were several cases of threats against me from attempted thieves stealing out of our yard by both the common criminal and previous employees. Now with that being said at the time I was not even familiar with OCing and while reading the information available to me I was under the impression that carrying on private property that was not open to the public was perfectly legal. Again though I was unclear if that pertained to openly or concealed. West Milwaukee Police knew from several burglar alarms that I was carrying both concealed and openly during after hours and weekends and never said anything to me until a safe with a pistol and other legal documents was stolen from our office. Then all they said was that it never should have been there and gave me a lecture about putting another gun on the street. Even if it was an old antique.

So ok if carrying concealed on somebody else's property "may" not be legal what about your own personal property? Also does it matter whether it is inside the house or in say the backyard? My biggest concern as a fairly new OCer is that I would rather ask now than accidentally have a sweater cover it and get popped with a charge that I "ass"umed didn't apply.

Can anybody state any case law where it may be legal to CC on private property? Say for example if it is your own property or a family members? And yes I know all about the GSFZ, transportation laws, and the general ban on CC. Just wondering if there are any exceptions to the law that I should be aware of.
 

Tree_Planter

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Wisconsin Statute 941.23 does not allow for a property owner to give you permission to conceal.

The WI Supreme Court carved out a set of exceptions across the cases of Hamdan, Vegas, Cole, Fisher, and a few others. They asked the legislature to work out the problems created in banning concealed carry, but the legislature has not done so.

Brad Krause
Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
 

bigdaddy1

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Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, adopted in 1998, states: “[t]he people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.”

In State v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328 (2003), the Supreme Court of Wisconsin rejected an Art. I, § 25 challenge to Wis. Stat. § 941.23, which prohibits the carrying of concealed weapons. Although the court found that the state right to "bear arms" is a fundamental, individual right under Art. I, § 25, the court held that it is subject to reasonable restriction. State v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, ¶ 26, 264 Wis. 2d 520, ¶ 26, 665 N.W.2d 328, ¶ 26. Finding that section 941.23 is "a reasonable regulation on the time, place, and manner in which the right to bear arms may be exercised," the court upheld the statute. State v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, ¶ 28, 264 Wis. 2d 520, ¶ 28, 665 N.W.2d 328, ¶ 28.

In a companion case to Cole, State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785 (2003), the supreme court carved out an exception to the prohibition on carrying concealed weapons under section 941.23. In Hamdan, defendant owned a convenience store in a high crime area and kept a handgun for protection. Law enforcement officers performing a routine investigation of defendant’s business license discovered the concealed firearm, confiscated it, and prosecuted defendant for violating section 941.23. Defendant argued that the ban on carrying concealed weapons was unconstitutional as applied to him because it interfered with his "right to bear arms" under Art. I, § 25.

At the outset, the court emphasized that section 941.23 is constitutional and that the state may regulate firearms under its police power. State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 46, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 46, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 46. Furthermore, the court noted that "only if the public benefit in . . . exercise of the police power [to regulate firearms] is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid restriction on that right be unconstitutional as applied." Id.

Following an extensive review of statutory and case law from other jurisdictions pertaining to both the carrying of concealed weapons and the right to "bear arms," the court found that defendant had a constitutional right under Art. I, § 25 to "keep and bear arms for the lawful purpose of security at the time he carried his concealed weapon . . . ." and reversed the conviction. State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 84, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 84, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 84.

The court noted that "f the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.
 

Nutczak

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Hamdan pretty much sums it up with concealed carry on private property, But are those rights extended to an authorized agent of the property owner too??

it may take another arrest, charge, guilty verdict, appeal, and a decision from a higher court and its subsequent case law to determine if the rights of a property owner are also extended to his employees acting as an agent of the actual property owner.
What is the fine for concealed carry? Fairly low and only a misdemeanor if I remember correctly.
I am not suggesting you break any laws, but obviously your need for security far outweighs the states prohibition of the act. (Vegas)
 

bigdaddy1

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Brad_Krause wrote:
Class A misdemeanor; fine not to exceed $10,000 or imprisonment not to exceed 9 months, or both. See 939.51(3)(a[highlight= blue; color: white; font-weight: bold;])

Brad Krause
Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
The court noted that "If the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.





Privatly owned property would appear to be listed in the above cite.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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But, back to the OP's question, it doesn't look like the owner of a business is allowed to let anyone else CC. If you read the strictest interpretation, if you rent your place of business you can't CC.
 

bigdaddy1

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paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
But, back to the OP's question, it doesn't look like the owner of a business is allowed to let anyone else CC. If you read the strictest interpretation, if you rent your place of business you can't CC.
I have read the posted cite several times, where do you find this interpretation? It states privatly operated business, where does it state anything other than what it says?
 

bnhcomputing

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bigdaddy1 wrote:
The court noted that "If the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.

Privately owned property would appear to be listed in the above cite.
I agree privately owned property is listed in the cite, but that word "HIS" would limit it to the actual owner of said property. It does not say anyone can carry concealed on private property and it doesn't state that the owner can give consent to conceal.
 

Spartacus

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And yet one of the charges I was tried for last year and subsequently found not guilty of was concealed carry on my own land.

The DA charged me and the judge found probable cause to try me on the charge as the witnesses accused me of drawing a handgun from a pocket even though it didn't happen that way.
 

bigdaddy1

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Also doesnt state one CANT. You can give someone permission to open carry on your property, so where does it state you can not provide other permissions.

I am not arguing, but if its allowable I want to know. If not (under the absolute letter of the law) it should beproven. The government uses the letter of the law against us, there are always two sides to every coin.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Spartacus wrote:
The DA charged me and the judge found probable cause to try me on the charge as the witnesses accused me of drawing a handgun from a pocket even though it didn't happen that way.

Did your attorney bring up the Supreme Court ruling?
 

bnhcomputing

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bigdaddy1 wrote:
Also doesnt state one CANT. You can give someone permission to open carry on your property, so where does it state you can not provide other permissions.

I am not arguing, but if its allowable I want to know. If not (under the absolute letter of the law) it should beproven. The government uses the letter of the law against us, there are always two sides to every coin.
But don't forget 941.23 Specifically states you cannot carry concealed.
 

AaronS

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bigdaddy1 wrote:
Brad_Krause wrote:
Class A misdemeanor; fine not to exceed $10,000 or imprisonment not to exceed 9 months, or both. See 939.51(3)(a[highlight= blue; color: white; font-weight: bold;])

Brad Krause
Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed
The court noted that "If the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.





Privatly owned property would appear to be listed in the above cite.

I have to agree with Bigdaddy on this one. In the Hamdan case, it clearly says that a privately operated business can sometimes conceal arms to maintain security within these premises. As far as other stores doing this, it goes on to add "the majority of the store owners [in the area] have some type of weapon on the premises based on my experience. " In fact, Officer Gajevic explained that he often checked these weapons to see if they were operating properly.".

Trust me, when the boss has the day off, he can, and often does let the workers protect his store, and its customersfor him (or her).

The part about the Hamdan case that scares me is that a jury found him guilty of CC the first time around.

Thats my $.02, but that is about what it's worth I guess...
 

qball54208

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Let us stay focused on the original question here and not get all bent outa shape and bringing in circumstances that have nothing to do with the original post.
Bantering about all the "What if's". Even though a particular Law reads blah blah, we can infer one thing or another. It is ultimately up to a Judge to interpit and decide.
If we stay on track, we all will enjoy a well rounded discussion.
 

davegran

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Well, I hate to repeat my self, but here goes....

See also State
v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.
A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense:

1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons stat-
ute? and

2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.

I don't see where it mentions anything about giving permission to somebody to CC on your property, nor does it say you can CC just because you feel like it. If you can answer the above two questions with a "Yes", then go for it.

Dave
 

bigdaddy1

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davegran wrote:
Well, I hate to repeat my self, but here goes....

See also State
v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.
A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense:

1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons stat-
ute? and

2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.

I don't see where it mentions anything about giving permission to somebody to CC on your property, nor does it say you can CC just because you feel like it. If you can answer the above two questions with a "Yes", then go for it.

Dave

We are not talking about a constitutional defence plea. We are talking about;



The court noted that "f the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.

And as stated in the OTHERtopic, the use of the word HIS is arguably not intended to be singular as in only 1 person. If that were the case it would be only for Mr. Hamdan.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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bigdaddy1 wrote:
And as stated in the OTHER topic, the use of the word HIS is arguably not intended to be singular as in only 1 person.   If that were the case it would be only for Mr. Hamdan.

Obviously it doesn't mean Mr. Hamdan only. His means the subject of the sentence which is the

person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises

In this case, the person is the owner (or renter) of a private residence or the owner of a privately operated business.
 

ffemt1079

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The court noted that "f the constitutional right to keep and bear arms for security is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within these premises." State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, ¶ 68, 264 Wis. 2d 433, ¶ 68, 665 N.W.2d 785, ¶ 68.







Granted this does not specifically tell anyone that you as an owner can give permission, it also does not expressly exclude an owner from granting permission to CC on PRIVATE property. I mean, isn't OC in wisconsin lawful due to the sole fact the WI written law simply does not mention it to forbid it??? Yes, we have the right to bear arms, but that doesnt mean the state couldnt start licensing like other states in order to practice that right. And no, I do not want the state to start issuing licenses for us to be able to carry, either OC or CC.
 
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