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CHP renewal question

ChinChin

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Mrs. chinchin was naughty and let her CHP expire. Now she wants to re-up it but the webpages I've seen are hazy on if it would be a renewal or if she'll have to go through the training/safety course/etc as if getting it for the first time.

Anybody had this happen before?
 

skidmark

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My Circuit Court Clerk (Chesterfield) treated it as a renewal. Go in and do the paperwork in person and see what they say, as it seems to be discretionary if you have in fact let the old one expire.

Aren't the wife-units supposed to be the ones who remember all the important dates? Is yours still under warranty?

stay safe.

skidmark
 

JimMullinsWVCDL

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She need only present evidence she has poreviously held a CHP. Va. Code § 18.2-308(G)(6) allows as proof of training: "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause[.]"
 

nuc65

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I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
 

user

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nuc65 wrote:
I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.
 

darthmord

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user wrote:
nuc65 wrote:
I believe that if she has the previous proof of competence it doesn't expire...

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.

user,

Wouldn't § 18.2-308 Subsection D (bolded section below) prohibit those places from requiring a new set of fingerprint cards?

For convenience, the following subsections D & I are copied & pasted from § 18.2-308:

"D. As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I."

"Subsection I. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in subsection D, a new five-year permit unless there is good cause shown for refusing to reissue a permit. If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit. If the circuit court denies the permit, the specific reasons for the denial shall be stated in the order of the court denying the permit. Upon denial of the application, the clerk shall provide the person with notice, in writing, of his right to an ore tenus hearing. Upon request of the applicant made within 21 days, the court shall place the matter on the docket for an ore tenus hearing. The applicant may be represented by counsel, but counsel shall not be appointed, and the rules of evidence shall apply. The final order of the court shall include the court's findings of fact and conclusions of law."

I don't see where they could require a new set of fingerprints because the existing permit is expired. Am I reading this right?
 

user

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No - the operative word in paragraph D that you've highlighted is "existing". If one's permit has expired, it's not "existing", so they demand a new set of fingerprint cards.
 

nuc65

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The question might hinge on whether or not the CHP is considered in existence if it has expired. Answer that and it will answer as to whether or not fingerprints may be required.
 

user

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Ahh, one of my pet peeves. People don't realize that certificates, cards, & permits are not the thing they evidence. A driver's license, for example, is not the "license" or permission granted by the State. That grant of permission is itselfe intangible. The card they give you is not the license, even though it's referred to that way. It's just evidence of the license. That's why your license to drive can be taken away without anyone actually removing the card from your possession. Same thing with a CHP - if the grant of permission has expired, the card means nothing. So as a legal matter, and this applies to all sorts of things, if an intangible grant of license has expired, lapsed, or been revoked, that license is no longer in existence. It is void, a nullity, nonexistent. The card that formerly represented the intangible grant of permission may still be in existence, but that's a big, "who cares?".

I apologize in advance for getting theological on y'all in my jurisprudence. This "grant of intangible license" thing sounds a lot like the orthodox notion of "mysteries".
 

TFred

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user wrote:
Ahh, one of my pet peeves. People don't realize that certificates, cards, & permits are not the thing they evidence. A driver's license, for example, is not the "license" or permission granted by the State. That grant of permission is itselfe intangible. The card they give you is not the license, even though it's referred to that way. It's just evidence of the license. That's why your license to drive can be taken away without anyone actually removing the card from your possession. Same thing with a CHP - if the grant of permission has expired, the card means nothing. So as a legal matter, and this applies to all sorts of things, if an intangible grant of license has expired, lapsed, or been revoked, that license is no longer in existence. It is void, a nullity, nonexistent. The card that formerly represented the intangible grant of permission may still be in existence, but that's a big, "who cares?".

I apologize in advance for getting theological on y'all in my jurisprudence. This "grant of intangible license" thing sounds a lot like the orthodox notion of "mysteries".
I appreciate the insight, no apology necessary to me at least.

This is all the more reason we need to get a law passed this session to codify an administrative penalty for not being in physical posession of one's "evidence of a CHP".

:)

TFred
 

darthmord

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User,

Thanks for the clarification.

As for waxing theological in your jurisprudence, please continue to do so. I learn something new each time.

DM
 

Mike

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user wrote:
Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.

And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
 

user

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Well, I respectfully disagree, and suggest, alternatively, that the phrase, "while an existing permit remains valid", is merely redundant.
 

Grapeshot

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Mike wrote:
user wrote:
Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.

And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?

Yata hey
 

TFred

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Grapeshot wrote:
Mike wrote:
user wrote:
Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.

And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?

Yata hey
It would seem to depend on which lawyer's advice you wish to follow. :)

One view is that the permit is an intangible thing, completely disconnected to the piece of paper, so it ceases to exist once it expires, the other is that if you have the piece of paper, then your permit "exists" even though it may be invalid due to the expiration date.

I guess we need to recruit a judge to the OCDO forums. However, I suppose that would soon be followed by a need for an appellate judge...

TFred
 

Mike

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Grapeshot wrote:
So the existing permit may be valid or not, but it is still an existing permit - is this the point?
Right, my argument is that the statute refers to an existing permit that may or not be valid - hence it is reasonable to apply this inference to what the word "existing" means for purposes of this statute - hence both vald and invalid permits are "existing" and all "existing" permits get you around fingerprint requirements.

Now a judge might not agree - but it sure seems to me that the statute speaks to the issue - an "existing" permit exempts you from fingerprinting whether it is valid or invalid, whatever those terms might mean, which presumably include expired via the invalid term.

Even if the tatute was silent re the scope of the term "existing," I suggest that since the statue is silent as to expired or not expired, that "existing" means you still have it - in your hand and tangible, expirted or not. But the statute speaks to "existing" permits which are also "invalid." Clearly that is useful to our argument.
 

ChinChin

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Mike wrote:
user wrote:
Correct. Some places will make you do the fingerprint cards over again.

And that is not correct in my opinion - hopefully Ms. Chin Chin's locality does have a fingerprint ordiance and she refuses to be fingerprinted again and is denied the permit for this refusal - that way shecan get this issue litigated and fixed for all of Virginia.

Localities "shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308." Va. Code §15.2-915.3 ("Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit").

Subsection I of § 18.2-308provides that "If the new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit." This text makes clear that an existing permit may be valid or not valid - presumably not valid means either expired or revoked. In any event, it appears clear that an expired but still existing permit privileges the holder from being fingerprinted as part of any application for a CHP through a circuit court in Virginia regardless oflocal ordinance.
Quick update: Wednesday of last week Mrs. ChinChin filed for her CHP renewal with the expired permit as proof of proficiency at the Loudoun County Sheriff's office. She says they ran her background check there and then was given a sealed packet which they had her deliver to the county court house and the clerk's office.

At no time did they ask her to submit fingerprints. Dropped the sealed packet with the clerks, paid her $40 bucks and now we wait.
 

user

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I was just reading the Fauquier Co. ordinance, quoted below, apropos of this thread. I came to the conclusion that the ordinance requires that one be fingerprinted exactly once. There is no provision in the ordinace for fingerprinting upon re-issuance or renewal.

Sec. 15-20. Submission of fingerprints required to obtain concealed weapons permit.
Any applicant for a concealed handgun permit shall be required to submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of obtaining the applicant's state and national criminal history record. As a condition for the issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law enforcement agencies. Upon completion of the criminal history records check and return of the fingerprint cards to the county sheriff's office by the state police, the sheriff's office shall promptly notify the applicant that he has twenty-one (21) days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within twenty-one (21) days of notification by the sheriff's office shall be destroyed. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held, or used for any other purposes.
(Ord. No. 00-2, 6-19-00)
 

ChinChin

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Mrs. Chinchin's permit came in the mail Monday morning. An expired permit CAN be used to renew.

Filed 12/9

Received 12/28

19 business days. Fairfax county could learn a thing or two.
 
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