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Culpeper MWAG, school

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,729
Location
here nc
It's not worth it on this board. It's dominated by very very very old people who have no concept of the way the world is today.

There's no slowly walking them towards the facts or reasoning with them. I've been on this board for 2.5 years and everything is the same here. It's like an old boys Alzheimer's club.

One of the first defense mechanisms used was how "old and wise they are" but unfortunately that leads to them using ancient reasoning on things. Like how they grew up around guns and it's no big deal that someone had one.

It doesn't matter what you say, in their minds pop tart guns are the same as an actual gun i if it isn't used.
this from the member who 2.5 years stated several times on this forum you only CC? ~ hummm?

got the rasinettes as the show is getting better...

ipse
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
It's not worth it on this board. It's dominated by very very very old people who have no concept of the way the world is today.
Dominated? Please cite numbers by age.

No idea of how the world is today? Then why are folks (of various values of old) comparing how things "used to be" to "how they are now"? Seems that would require familiarity with both eras.

There's no slowly walking them towards the facts or reasoning with them. I've been on this board for 2.5 years and everything is the same here. It's like an old boys Alzheimer's club.
What facts would you like folks walked towards? Please be very specific so the very very very old people do not get confused or lost.

Reasoning? Is that what you call what you do? What happened to statement of a thesis, presentation of facts both in support and in opposition to the thesis, analysis of the value/weight of the facts, determination of outcome? You know, what they used to call "logic"?

One of the first defense mechanisms used was how "old and wise they are" but unfortunately that leads to them using ancient reasoning on things. Like how they grew up around guns and it's no big deal that someone had one.
If nothing else, old provides experience. Yes, older folks know how things used to be, but I covered that above.

If there is "ancient reasoning" it implies there is "modern reasoning". Please describe the differences between the two.

Yes, "back in the day" more folks grew up around guns and it was generally no big deal if someone had one. Things are different in a large number of ways; the primary differences seem to be a larger percentage of the population identifying the gun itself as bad, and therefore the person with the gun as bad, and that there seem to be fewer outlets for dealing with a host of emotional issues other than some sort of rampage violence directed in a non-focused way against society as a whole rather than at the specific causes of the perceived emotional distress.

It doesn't matter what you say, in their minds pop tart guns are the same as an actual gun i if it isn't used.
Oh! Aha! You are not talking about the very very very old folks that generally frequent OCDO but the hoplophobes mentioned immediately above. Plus those who have a deep and abiding fear that they would be unable to control their behavior and then project that same lack of control onto others.

Now if you had just said that in the first place ....

stay safe.
 

mkatzpp

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Culpeper VA
.

Dominated? Please cite numbers by age.


sure, i'll play along. everyone who has responded negatively towards me, the government, the media or the police response in this thread is old. can i prove it? no. but its fairly clear that they are. i'd venture to guess that other than scooter and myself almost everyone else is over 65.

No idea of how the world is today? Then why are folks (of various values of old) comparing how things "used to be" to "how they are now"? Seems that would require familiarity with both eras.

being able to compare things doesn't mean a familiarity or an understanding. example, when i was growing up no one had peanut allergies, this is just a ***** ass world coddling to those who cant suck it up and eat a nut. Nightmare (from above) doesn't get that the world changes and what was relevant back in the day doesn't hold much weight anymore.


What facts would you like folks walked towards? Please be very specific so the very very very old people do not get confused or lost.

i dont want any of you walked towards any facts. you are all bad for guns because you all think in extremes. there is no middle ground. basically you want it like it was 50 years ago and anything less is infringing on your rights. you're either unwilling or incapable of seeing that the world has changed substantially over the past 50 years and some concessions need to be made. this is fairly clear by people who argue that they brought guns to school back in the day. what horrible and stupid reasoning. and for the other 75% of you to defend that reasoning is just awful.

as for specifics on walking you towards something, that was the other guys words (scooter) who thought i was harsh with my initial reaction. but about 5min later he was bombarded by the same idiocy that i had to deal with. i promise you he probably will be less tolerant going forward.


Reasoning? Is that what you call what you do? What happened to statement of a thesis, presentation of facts both in support and in opposition to the thesis, analysis of the value/weight of the facts, determination of outcome? You know, what they used to call "logic"?

and then this is you trying to be smarter than you really are in an attempt to shut someone down. really? you want to apply all that to this message board. maybe use the scientific method while we're at it? show me any posts on this forum that go THIS deep into thought and reasoning for any posts made here. you enforce this high a level of reasoning on everyone who ever posts here or just me?

If nothing else, old provides experience. Yes, older folks know how things used to be, but I covered that above.

If there is "ancient reasoning" it implies there is "modern reasoning". Please describe the differences between the two.

sure, i'll explain the difference. modern reasoning doesn't use only history as a basis for whats happening today. at least 3x in this thread different people used 50 year old history as a rationale to bash the people and thinking of today. but its just not relevant that you brought guns to school growing up. i just dont get how you can defend the people using that logic as a basis for what is happening today in 2015. my god, go out and beat on some blacks and gays if that's the case because that was acceptable 50 years ago also.

Yes, "back in the day" more folks grew up around guns and it was generally no big deal if someone had one. Things are different in a large number of ways; the primary differences seem to be a larger percentage of the population identifying the gun itself as bad, and therefore the person with the gun as bad, and that there seem to be fewer outlets for dealing with a host of emotional issues other than some sort of rampage violence directed in a non-focused way against society as a whole rather than at the specific causes of the perceived emotional distress.

you'll get no argument from me about the gun not being the problem. its always the people. but that's not what this thread is about anymore. its the posters on this forum finding fault with the government or the media because "when they grew up before the advent of the automobile they could bring guns to school." either recognize that no longer applies or you'll take us (the gun community) down with you trying to push that BS on the other 99.9999% of the population. the bottom line is do you want kids bringing guns to schools? if your answer is no, then stop saying things were different. if the answer is yes, you dont care if kids bring guns to school because that's the way it used to be then its time to leave this forum.

Oh! Aha! You are not talking about the very very very old folks that generally frequent OCDO but the hoplophobes mentioned immediately above. Plus those who have a deep and abiding fear that they would be unable to control their behavior and then project that same lack of control onto others.

Now if you had just said that in the first place ....

and this isn't at all what i was saying. nightmare was comparing a credible threat with a gun to someone who ate his pop tart into the shape of a gun. the fact that you're bashing me and not that idiot makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is.

stay safe.
.
 
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mkatzpp

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Culpeper VA
i figure i must be off my rocker so here's what i've noticed:

post #2, nightmare makes fun of the situation

post #3, the truth agrees with nightmare about the overreaction. clearly because in the end he "only" had a pellet gun we can joke about it. i mean there was no chance he lied and it was a real gun or that he had another non-pellet gun. obviously the student making threats to shoot other kids is laughable.

post #6, nightmare again makes light of the situation by calling zero tolerance for guns in schools as "thougtlessness"

post #10, nightmare compares a kid with a gun (who no one can be sure of was a pellet gun) and him threatening to shoot other kids, and then leaving school to an elementary student eating a pop tart into the shape of a gun.

post #15, color of law uses his way back machine to think we're all over reacting to a student having a gun and making threats because when he grew up it was ok to bring rifles into school. probably hes not old at all.

post #17, once again color of law calls us all brainwashed because we're not accepting that guns used to be mainstream in school and a kid bringing a gun and making threats is just us non ancient folks over reacting.

post #22, weird post, color of law is now acting macho saying he's had guns held to his head and calling us out for not educating our schools about gun safety. i cant tell what he's hoping to accomplish but i can only imagine he's trying to get all the students to be safe when they bring guns to school.

post #26, color of law trying to convince us that crime is down even though every metric used shows its up both the amount and percent relative to population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

once again we're over reacting and at the mercy of government and the media. kids should clearly be allowed to have guns in school because he did 50 years ago.

post #36, skidmark joins late and rather than be the voice of reason by looking through the actual content of the posts he defends people's old views and ways of doing things. he thinks the old Alzheimers club has wisdom ignoring the fact that they advocate for guns in schools and that we're over reacting to kids bringing them in and making threats against other kids.

yup, that's why i rarely post here. in 2.5 years i've seen it time and time again. everyone has one point of view, the one that existed 50 years ago. those were the best of times. nothing bad happened then because the population was half what it is now and without social media no one knew about murder until weeks after it happened and it was a byline on page 10. i wish we could go back to unicorn land where gay was a curable disease, blacks were garbage and women were property. ah the good ole days!
 
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The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
mkatz - If you'd come out to an OC dinner and chat in person you'd find that I do not fit your criteria whatsoever - not to mention you have misattributed my position on the matter based on my comment of, "Seriously," to a post which had multiple subjects. You should ask more questions instead of making assumptions and insulting people for what you THINK they mean. I'll ask that you either edit your post to strike my username and related attributions you've conveniently inserted to support your narrative, or just take a deep breath.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
I live in Culpeper with a daughter in 4th. Kid was racking slide and threatened to shoot other kids. Then left school, to do God knows what!? No one can be sure it's a pellet gun or of his intentions until they get him.

I think whatever the response might've been was justified. My wife is a teacher in Prince William and there's no reason to take any chances these days.

Also at her school (elementary) last year a kid brought in gun "paraphernalia." It wasn't actually the gun, but maybe a mag and slide or something.

Zero tolerance, and that comes from someone who carries daily, even in my house.
This is your first post in this thread. Let's take a look at it.

You have a kid in the 4th grade. You say nothing about whether or not she was on the same bus as the NGWAG nor do you say anything about whether the NGWAG went into the middle school part of the campus or elsewhere, so we have no idea of how immediate any threat might have been. Buy boy, howdy, you sure are worried.

Kid on a bus is fiddling with a gun-like object (at that time nobody was sure what precisely it was). Your best suggestion is to lock the school down and wait for the cops (with the MRAP) to show up - which they do after he has departed the campus. So the best defense against a person with a gun-like thing is for everybody to hide and cower - the one tactic that has been demonstrated each and every time to be the best way to become a shooting victim. Nothing about some of the adults at the school (what, no school resource officer?) to challenge the NGWAG - especially if they were equipped to offer equal counter-force (yes, that means being armed).[SUP]1[/SUP]

Kid verbalizes threats, but "no one can be sure ... of his intentions until they get him."

Rather than wait to "be sure" why not suppose his intent was not benign and deal with him on that basis?

You say the massive lockdown response was justified. (Then you bring up something that happened at your wife's school last year but did not involve a complete whatever-the-heck-it-was).

According to you there is one and only one appropriate response, and you bring up anecdotes from the past as if they have any relevance to the current discussion. Sort of like you accuse the very very very old folks here of doing.

Somewhere I'm pretty sure there is a pot and a kettle involved here.

stay safe.

[SUP]1[/SUP] - Am I the only person in America who has thought that school personnel (teachers, administrators, resource officers) would be far better served with a firearm other than a handgun? I realize nobody has bothered to ask me, but had they I would have suggested a 20- or 18-gauge shotgun loaded with rubber pellets. They sting like heck when properly skipped off the ground into the shin area. They are powerful enough to break arm/rib/leg bones when fired directly at the body and can inflict lethal injury to the head/neck. So much easier to use than a handgun, and appear a lot more intimidating.

As a cop I know has stated, "Show a mook a shotgun and they get all worried. Even with rubber pellets you hit the mook a few times from cover to put them down and then advance on them popping them in the torso a few more times and they are often willing to be cuffed and stuffed without further discussion. If not they will usually spend more time avoiding getting popped again than shooting at you." (anecdote =/= data but have you got anything better to offer?)
 

mkatzpp

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Culpeper VA
Plus it seems like people are just throwing random **** out there. Like, what does crime have to do with kids bringing guns to school?

Some segments of crime is down so now it's ok? I'm trying to understand the correlation here. Frankly for me, crime could be almost 0 and I'd still carry.

But we're talking about guns by kids in school. Or so I thought.
 

mkatzpp

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Culpeper VA
This is your first post in this thread. Let's take a look at it.

You have a kid in the 4th grade. You say nothing about whether or not she was on the same bus as the NGWAG nor do you say anything about whether the NGWAG went into the middle school part of the campus or elsewhere, so we have no idea of how immediate any threat might have been. Buy boy, howdy, you sure are worried.

Kid on a bus is fiddling with a gun-like object (at that time nobody was sure what precisely it was). Your best suggestion is to lock the school down and wait for the cops (with the MRAP) to show up - which they do after he has departed the campus. So the best defense against a person with a gun-like thing is for everybody to hide and cower - the one tactic that has been demonstrated each and every time to be the best way to become a shooting victim. Nothing about some of the adults at the school (what, no school resource officer?) to challenge the NGWAG - especially if they were equipped to offer equal counter-force (yes, that means being armed).[SUP]1[/SUP]

Kid verbalizes threats, but "no one can be sure ... of his intentions until they get him."

Rather than wait to "be sure" why not suppose his intent was not benign and deal with him on that basis?

You say the massive lockdown response was justified. (Then you bring up something that happened at your wife's school last year but did not involve a complete whatever-the-heck-it-was).

According to you there is one and only one appropriate response, and you bring up anecdotes from the past as if they have any relevance to the current discussion. Sort of like you accuse the very very very old folks here of doing.

Somewhere I'm pretty sure there is a pot and a kettle involved here.

stay safe.

[SUP]1[/SUP] - Am I the only person in America who has thought that school personnel (teachers, administrators, resource officers) would be far better served with a firearm other than a handgun? I realize nobody has bothered to ask me, but had they I would have suggested a 20- or 18-gauge shotgun loaded with rubber pellets. They sting like heck when properly skipped off the ground into the shin area. They are powerful enough to break arm/rib/leg bones when fired directly at the body and can inflict lethal injury to the head/neck. So much easier to use than a handgun, and appear a lot more intimidating.

As a cop I know has stated, "Show a mook a shotgun and they get all worried. Even with rubber pellets you hit the mook a few times from cover to put them down and then advance on them popping them in the torso a few more times and they are often willing to be cuffed and stuffed without further discussion. If not they will usually spend more time avoiding getting popped again than shooting at you." (anecdote =/= data but have you got anything better to offer?)
It's painful. My first post was only in response to two people making light of the situation. Had nothing to do with my personal connection to the situation.

And are you saying that a lockdown is an over reaction because kids can't be trusted to know what a gun looks like? And on top of that kids hearing the boy with a gun saying he's going to shoot other kids?

Personally I think teachers should be armed, but beyond that the way the response happened to a credible threat seems fine to me.

The only issue I have is the posters in this thread who made light of a potentially serious situation. I'm praying that none of them had offspring to pass their bad genes onto.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
It's painful. My first post was only in response to two people making light of the situation. Had nothing to do with my personal connection to the situation.
Could have - in fact did - fooled me.

And are you saying that a lockdown is an over reaction because kids can't be trusted to know what a gun looks like? And on top of that kids hearing the boy with a gun saying he's going to shoot other kids?
No, and you know it. Go read my post again.

Personally I think teachers should be armed, but beyond that the way the response happened to a credible threat seems fine to me.
"The way the response happened" - does that mean the outcome? Because just about every cop and their mother-in-law is coming around to realizing that immediate appropriately-equipped confrontation is the only response that has been demonstrated to reduce the number of victims and the severity of injuries inflicted.

Are, or should, teachers and administrators be considered cops or otherwise expected to rush to the sound of the guns? No. But how long did it take from the time the threat became known until the cops arrived? s herding the kids into killing fields the best way to protect them?

The only issue I have is the posters in this thread who made light of a potentially serious situation. I'm praying that none of them had offspring to pass their bad genes onto.
False, and a really classy personal attack to boot.

I'd like to meet with you in person where you may not feel the need to defend yourself so vigorously. Let me know.

stay safe.
 

mkatzpp

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Culpeper VA
False, and a really classy personal attack to boot.

I'd like to meet with you in person where you may not feel the need to defend yourself so vigorously. Let me know.

stay safe.
My life's an open book. I don't hide behind the anonymity of the internet. Would take all of 2 minutes to Google my full information. I'm more than willing to meet you. So the balls in your court now. I'm a retired 40 year old from Culpeper. Let's meet tomorrow...

In fact I insist. Let's meet tomorrow and discuss the 50 posts in this thread to see who was over reacting and which one of us was in the right here.

We'll go trough this thread one by one and talk about each post. My treat of course.
 
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The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
It's painful. My first post was only in response to two people making light of the situation. Had nothing to do with my personal connection to the situation.

And are you saying that a lockdown is an over reaction because kids can't be trusted to know what a gun looks like? And on top of that kids hearing the boy with a gun saying he's going to shoot other kids?

Personally I think teachers should be armed, but beyond that the way the response happened to a credible threat seems fine to me.

The only issue I have is the posters in this thread who made light of a potentially serious situation. I'm praying that none of them had offspring to pass their bad genes onto.
You're getting awfully emotional about some quirky personality traits from a few of the forum "elders.," is all. The way you make your arguments personal is really distracting from any solid points you may or may not bring to the conversation.

Would you mind quoting the post(s) that you believe to be "making light" of the "situation?" Seems to me, the actual situation didn't present much danger. Maybe there was potential for extreme danger, but nothing really happened - people just got scared. It seems as if you are appealing to pathos in regards to the fears of those who may or may not be directly involved. No one is right or wrong here, but some feel differently than others. We should be able to talk about it without fear of personal insult - per the rules.

This is why it irks me that some people may not consider the modern day "mass shooting" as an attack which is terroristic in nature. The media have done a good job in defining the term "terrorist," it seems. The FBI definition may be interpreted different ways depending on the status quo, apparently.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/terrorism/pages/welcome.aspx
 

Have Gun - Will Carry

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
290
Location
Kenosha County, Wisconsin
i figure i must be off my rocker so here's what i've noticed:

post #2, nightmare makes fun of the situation

post #3, the truth agrees with nightmare about the overreaction. clearly because in the end he "only" had a pellet gun we can joke about it. i mean there was no chance he lied and it was a real gun or that he had another non-pellet gun. obviously the student making threats to shoot other kids is laughable.

post #6, nightmare again makes light of the situation by calling zero tolerance for guns in schools as "thougtlessness"
Though I seldom agree with "Nightmare", in this case he nailed it. "Zero tolerance" in today's society has become nothing but a cop-out for politicians and educators (among others) to turn off their brain and use the Nuremberg defense: "I was only doing what I was told."

post #10, nightmare
Hold on a second - aren't you forgetting something? Let me refresh your memory...

post #8, quote "Are you just stupid?" and calling him too old - twice.

Or maybe post #11, saying he should be banned for stupidity? Really? What a childish response - no wonder folks began treating you like a child!

Then by post #30, you're throwing the word moron in the general direction of those who disagree with you. Now, does that strike you as a mature way of debating? It doesn't seem that way to me, and I'm sure most here would agree. In fact, during my five years on this forum I have never once quoted the forum rules to anyone, but here you've earned it:

Rule #(9) HATE IS NOT WELCOME HERE: Any posts attacking others based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity, or anything other than opposition to gun rights is NOT WELCOME HERE!

Let's see, where was I?

post # 10, nightmare compares a kid with a gun (who no one can be sure of was a pellet gun) and him threatening to shoot other kids, and then leaving school to an elementary student eating a pop tart into the shape of a gun.
Or, if you weren't so blinded by your own biases, you might detect that he was responding to your sarcasm in kind... but no.

post #15,
Nah... on second thought, I don't have time to respond to all of your immaturity now. Suffice it to say, the bashing and attacks I saw taking place in this thread were begun by you and scooter. Whereupon the mature members here started throwing it back in your direction, leading this to devolve into the mess it has become.

yup, that's why i rarely post here. in 2.5 years i've seen it time and time again. everyone has one point of view, the one that existed 50 years ago. those were the best of times. nothing bad happened then because the population was half what it is now and without social media no one knew about murder until weeks after it happened and it was a byline on page 10. i wish we could go back to unicorn land where gay was a curable disease, blacks were garbage and women were property. ah the good ole days!
Funny, you seem to be the only one suggesting the items in bold... no one else is. And your rationale - that some of these posters are too old to understand that times have changed and the world is different now - sounds like nothing more than an anti-gun hoplophobe's point of view.

Besides, just because things have changed doesn't mean things can't go back to the way they were decades ago... all it would take is to clean house and start fresh in D.C. and most state capitols. Work toward that goal and you might earn some respect around here... or you could just throw tantrums and see how far that gets you!
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,275
Location
northern wis
The government wants you to be in fear. That is called control.

Crime is down. 40 years ago you would not hear about some shooting for weeks or months. And when you did it was on page 10 of the news paper. Today it is instant. Today it is sensationalized and done so to instill fear. In effect, you drank the Kool-aid.

Quit being manipulated.

Enough said.....
I been saying that for years about a lot of so called news.

Don't know who you think drank the cool aid but it sure isn't me.
 
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