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"Handgun"

ICBM

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Jun 14, 2014
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Location
McCordsville, IN
So I was wondering what exactly I could carry under the License to Carry Handgun, so I found the definition of "handgun"...

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.

Does this mean something like a P90 with a 10" barrel is considered a handgun under state law?
How about if I get a custom made 15.9" barrel for a Browning M2?
From what I read, a machine pistol is legal under a LCH, as long as it is registered with the BATF under National Firearms Act.

This thread is about legality, not practicality ;)

Am I wrong?
 
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cce1302

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Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
The "handgun" definition makes things harder, not easier.

For instance, there is no law against concealing a loaded rifle on your person or in a car. If you want to conceal an SBR, you have to have a LTCH.


Any NFA regulations are federal, not state, so you can't cut down a shotgun and say "it's a handgun, so I don't have to pay the $200 tax."
 

ATM

Campaign Veteran
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Aug 1, 2009
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361
Location
Indiana, USA
Yep, you can carry any firearm which you lawfully possess

...but, for any firearm that falls within the Indiana definition of a handgun, unlicensed carry is prohibited.
 

Kopis

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Nashville, TN
technically, yes you can carry your P90 with 10" barrel as it is classified as a pistol. I could carry an AR pistol openly here in TN with my HCP but........ is it wise to do so? probably not.


We had a guy in nashville while back that OCed his AR or AK pistol. He ended up getting arrested. He may win the case eventually but it just isnt wise. Now the guy in TX that was hiking with his son while carrying an AR but was arrested, that actually seemed like an appropriate time to carry an AR but once again, it didnt end well for him.
 

cce1302

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technically, yes you can carry your P90 with 10" barrel as it is classified as a pistol. I could carry an AR pistol openly here in TN with my HCP but........ is it wise to do so? probably not.


We had a guy in nashville while back that OCed his AR or AK pistol. He ended up getting arrested. He may win the case eventually but it just isnt wise. Now the guy in TX that was hiking with his son while carrying an AR but was arrested, that actually seemed like an appropriate time to carry an AR but once again, it didnt end well for him.
*sigh*
 

Golden Eagle

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Location
SW Michigan
Yep, you can carry any firearm which you lawfully possess

...but, for any firearm that falls within the Indiana definition of a handgun, unlicensed carry is prohibited.
Are you saying I can carry a loaded non handgun in my vehicle in Indiana with or without a carry license.

(I view this as just a transportation clarification.)
 
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ATM

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Indiana, USA
Are you saying I can carry a loaded non handgun in my vehicle in Indiana with or without a carry license.

(I view this as just a transportation clarification.)
Correct. Firearms which do not meet the Indiana definition of a handgun may be carried on your person or transported loaded or unloaded with or without a carry license.
 

cce1302

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Just had a bit of a thought here this morning...don't really have time to do the research myself right now but I want to post it to look into later:

Does the Indiana DNR follow the same definition of handgun for hunting regulations? i.e. A rifle caliber from a "handgun" could be a rifle caliber from a firearm with less than 16" barrel?
 

cce1302

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South Bend, Indiana, USA
Re: my previous post

No such luck on SBR being classified as a rifle. I found it in the DNR annual hunting regs on the deer page.
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antlerless seasons. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted. The handgun must not be a rifle that has a barrel less than 18 inches or be designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.

Some handgun cartridges that are legal for deer hunting include .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .35 Remington and .357 Herrett.

Some handgun cartridges that are illegal for deer hunting are .38 Special, .38 Smith and Wesson, .38 Colt New Police, .38/200, .38 Long Colt, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .38 Colt Auto, .45 ACP, .45 Automatic and .45 Auto Rim. All .25/.20, .32/.20 and .30 carbine ammunition is prohibited.
 

ICBM

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Jun 14, 2014
Messages
76
Location
McCordsville, IN
One can cut any barrel down to any desired length .. no need to spend mega bucks ...
That's just plain wrong.

* * * Update (8/25/15), following laws in green have been repealed * * *

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen
(18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an
overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.

IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
(1) manufactures;
(2) causes to be manufactured;
(3) imports into Indiana;
(4) keeps for sale;
(5) offers or exposes for sale; or
(6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a
Level 6 felony.
(b) The presence of a weapon referred to in subsection (a) in a
motor vehicle (as defined under IC 9-13-2-105(a)) except for school
buses and a vehicle operated in the transportation of passengers by a
common carrier (as defined in IC 8-2.1-17-4) creates an inference
that the weapon is in the possession of the persons occupying the
motor vehicle. However, the inference does not apply to all the
persons occupying the motor vehicle if the weapon is found upon, or
under the control of, one (1) of the occupants. In addition, the
inference does not apply to a duly licensed driver of a motor vehicle
for hire who finds the weapon in the licensed driver's motor vehicle
in the proper pursuit of the licensed driver's trade.
(c) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who
is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person
who manufactures or imports for sale or sells a sawed-off shotgun to
a law enforcement agency.

That's just the state law.

Under The National Firearms Act of 1968, barrel length is also regulated for certain weapons;

Short-barreled rifles (SBRs) — this category includes any firearm with a buttstock and either a rifled barrel under 16" long or an overall length under 26". The overall length is measured with any folding or collapsing stocks in the extended position. The category also includes firearms which came from the factory with a buttstock that was later removed by a third party.

Short barreled shotguns (SBSs) — this category is defined similarly to SBRs, but the barrel must be under 18" or a minimum overall length under 26". and the barrel must be a smoothbore.

...and the punishment can be quite harsh...

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations. A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation or trust), under the general tax evasion statute. For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.
- 26 U.S.C. § 5861, 26 U.S.C. § 5871, 26 U.S.C. § 7201

The "handgun" definition makes things harder, not easier.

For instance, there is no law against concealing a loaded rifle on your person or in a car. If you want to conceal an SBR, you have to have a LTCH.


Any NFA regulations are federal, not state, so you can't cut down a shotgun and say "it's a handgun, so I don't have to pay the $200 tax."
In Indiana (as cited above), even if it is cleared under the NFA, a person may not own a sawed-off shotgun. But this is all predicated on a legally owned NFA weapon.

But, I have to disagree with you about making things harder, not easier. Let's take a look at one of the exceptions to the preemption law;

IC 35-47-11.1-4
Not prohibited by chapter
Sec. 4. This chapter may not be construed to prevent any of the
following:
(6) The enactment or enforcement of a provision prohibiting or
restricting the intentional display of a firearm at a public
meeting.

(I picked subsection 6 out of simplicity of argument.)
As you can see, the preemption law states in most of the subsections about FIREARMS being able to be banned by the city, in certain situations, at their discretion.
So by that wording, they can prevent you from bringing your rifle into a public meeting. But, if we look at the bottom of the same section of code...

"However, except as provided in subdivision (5) concerning a
building that contains a courtroom, a unit may not prohibit or
restrict the possession of a handgun under this subdivision in a
building owned or administered by the unit if the person who
possesses the handgun has been issued a valid license to carry
the handgun under IC 35-47-2."

... It provides an exception to a "handgun" carried by a person who has a carry license.
If you were to carry an NFA compliant SBR, or any other weapon that has a barrel less than 16", like a P-90, or otherwise is defined as a "handgun", the city cannot stop you unless it is a building containing a courtroom.

I've tried to debunk this theory myself, but I've not come across any other laws that would prevent this from occurring.
Any thoughts? :p
 
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cce1302

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Messages
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Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
In Indiana (as cited above), even if it is cleared under the NFA, a person may not own a sawed-off shotgun. But this is all predicated on a legally owned NFA weapon.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the prohibition of SBSs when I made the post.
But, I have to disagree with you about making things harder, not easier. Let's take a look at one of the exceptions to the preemption law;

IC 35-47-11.1-4
Not prohibited by chapter
Sec. 4. This chapter may not be construed to prevent any of the
following:
(6) The enactment or enforcement of a provision prohibiting or
restricting the intentional display of a firearm at a public
meeting.

(I picked subsection 6 out of simplicity of argument.)
As you can see, the preemption law states in most of the subsections about FIREARMS being able to be banned by the city, in certain situations, at their discretion.
So by that wording, they can prevent you from bringing your rifle into a public meeting. But, if we look at the bottom of the same section of code...

"However, except as provided in subdivision (5) concerning a
building that contains a courtroom, a unit may not prohibit or
restrict the possession of a handgun under this subdivision in a
building owned or administered by the unit if the person who
possesses the handgun has been issued a valid license to carry
the handgun under IC 35-47-2."

... It provides an exception to a "handgun" carried by a person who has a carry license.
If you were to carry an NFA compliant SBR, or any other weapon that has a barrel less than 16", like a P-90, or otherwise is defined as a "handgun", the city cannot stop you unless it is a building containing a courtroom.

I've tried to debunk this theory myself, but I've not come across any other laws that would prevent this from occurring.
Any thoughts? :p
Yeah. (6) permits a provision prohibiting or restricting the intentional display of a firearm at a public meeting. The exception at the bottom is for the possession of a handgun with a LTCH.

You can possess a firearm at a public meeting. If it's an SBR or handgun, you need a LTCH. If it's a concealed long gun, you don't. Local governments can prohibit you from intentionally displaying any of them.

Nice try, though.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
technically, yes you can carry your P90 with 10" barrel as it is classified as a pistol. I could carry an AR pistol openly here in TN with my HCP but........ is it wise to do so? probably not.

We had a guy in nashville while back that OCed his AR or AK pistol. He ended up getting arrested. He may win the case eventually but it just isnt wise. Now the guy in TX that was hiking with his son while carrying an AR but was arrested, that actually seemed like an appropriate time to carry an AR but once again, it didnt end well for him.
Technically, No, you cannot carry a P90 with a 10 inch barrel as a pistol because it's a 'Post '86 machine gun.' Nor can you carry a PS90 with a 10 inch barrel as a pistol as that configuration is classified as a Short Barreled Rifle. You can of course pay for a tax stamp for a SBR'd PS90 and carry in that way, if your state allows.

"The guy in Nashville" is, I'm guessing Leonard Embody aka 'kwikrnu' who antics are available online and too numerous to mention here.

"The guy in Texas" I'm assuming is referring to C.J. Grisham who was convicted of "interfering with the duties of a police officer" only as a result of the slew of charges preferred against him. In the eyes of the law, there was nothing wrong with him openly carrying a long arm in full view of the public.
 
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cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
270
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
Technically, No, you cannot carry a P90 with a 10 inch barrel as a pistol because it's a 'Post '86 machine gun.' Nor can you carry a PS90 with a 10 inch barrel as a pistol as that configuration is classified as a Short Barreled Rifle. You can of course pay for a tax stamp for a SBR'd PS90 and carry in that way, if your state allows.

"The guy in Nashville" is, I'm guessing Leonard Embody aka 'kwikrnu' who antics are available online and too numerous to mention here.

"The guy in Texas" I'm assuming is referring to C.J. Grisham who was convicted of "interfering with the duties of a police officer" only as a result of the slew of charges preferred against him. In the eyes of the law, there was nothing wrong with him openly carrying a long arm in full view of the public.

Apropos to this forum (Indiana): Assuming all NFA laws are followed, there's nothing in Indiana law that prohibits carrying a 10" P90 or PS90 with an LTCH, according to the definition of handgun in the OP.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Apropos to this forum (Indiana): Assuming all NFA laws are followed, there's nothing in Indiana law that prohibits carrying a 10" P90 or PS90 with an LTCH, according to the definition of handgun in the OP.
Apropos to this forum (Indiana): assuming all NFA laws are followed, shortening the barrel of a PS90 from 16.1 inches to 10 (or any amount less than 16) does not make it a pistol, it makes it a Short Barreled Rifle (which is why NFA rules must be followed in the first place). The astute reader may notice the complete lack of mention of the National Firearms Act in the original post.

IC 35-47-1-6 Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
The FH PS90 was not designed to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length.
 
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cce1302

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Messages
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Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
Apropos to this forum (Indiana): assuming all NFA laws are followed, shortening the barrel of a PS90 from 16.1 inches to 10 (or any amount less than 16) does not make it a pistol, it makes it a Short Barreled Rifle (which is why NFA rules must be followed in the first place). The astute reader may notice the complete lack of mention of the National Firearms Act in the original post.
Actually, "the astute reader" noticed the mention of the National Firearms Act right here in the OP:

From what I read, a machine pistol is legal under a LCH, as long as it is registered with the BATF under National Firearms Act.
You may scroll to the top of the page to see it for yourself.
Furthermore, this is not a discussion of 18 USC definitions, which are not in dispute here. It's a discussion of the definition of a handgun according to IC. Perhaps your explanation of NFA laws would be relevant in a thread on that topic.
The FH PS90 was not designed to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length.
Nobody claims that it was. However, to continue the "astute reader" motif, he will notice the "or" following the sentence you quoted that does not apply to the FH (sic) PS90. Therefore, Indiana Code 35-47-1-6 Section 6 can be understood in this context: "Handgun" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length.

In other words, any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length is defined as a handgun under Indiana law.
 

ICBM

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Messages
76
Location
McCordsville, IN
IC 35-47-1-6 Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.

You see, it says "Any firearm designed to fire from one hand; or a barrel less than 16 inches; or an overall length of 26 inches."

Key word is "or" since fulfillment of any one of three qualifies it as a handgun under state law, not the culmination of all three.

Yeah. (6) permits a provision prohibiting or restricting the intentional display of a firearm at a public meeting. The exception at the bottom is for the possession of a handgun with a LTCH.
You can possess a firearm at a public meeting. If it's an SBR or handgun, you need a LTCH. If it's a concealed long gun, you don't. Local governments can prohibit you from intentionally displaying any of them.
Why would they be able to restrict the open carry of a handgun possessed by a license holder?

And okay, here is (10) then, for example. The scenario is some type of festival or what-not.

(10) For an event occurring on property leased from a political subdivision or municipal corporation by the promoter or organizer of the event:
(A) the establishment, by the promoter or organizer, at the promoter's or organizer's own discretion, of rules of conduct or admission upon which attendance at or participation in the event is conditioned; or
(B) the implementation or enforcement of the rules of conduct or admission described in clause (A) by a political subdivision or municipal corporation in connection with the event.

They could prevent you from going to said festival with a rifle, but not a handgun with a license.

Assuming all NFA laws are followed, there's nothing in Indiana law that prohibits carrying a 10" P90 or PS90 with an LTCH, according to the definition of handgun in the OP.
This.

assuming all NFA laws are followed, shortening the barrel of a PS90 from 16.1 inches to 10 (or any amount less than 16) does not make it a pistol, it makes it a Short Barreled Rifle
It would be classified as a SBR, but only in reference to the NFA.

Since the license to carry handgun is codified in state statute, the general definition of handgun would also be defined by an applicable state statute.

But yes, the P-90 would have to be registered as a SBR/machine gun, but on the state level, it's a handgun simply because of the barrel length. It's obviously a poorly worded statute and makes the definition of a handgun rather vague.

:cool: Also there are factory P-90's with 10 barrels. Don't need to cut them down. :rolleyes:
 

cce1302

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Messages
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Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
10 looks like it allows prohibition of all firearms.

13 I think is the only one that would make a difference:

(13)Subject to IC 35-47-16-1, a unit (as defined in IC 36-1-2-23) from enacting or enforcing a provision prohibiting or restricting the possession of a firearm in a building owned or administered by the unit if: (A) metal detection devices are located at each public entrance to the building; (B)each public entrance to the building is staffed by at least one (1) law enforcement officer: (i) who has been adequately trained to conduct inspections of persons entering the building by use of metal detection devices and proper physical pat down searches; and(ii) when the building is open to the public; and (C) each: (i) individual who enters the building through the public entrance when the building is open to the public; and (ii) bag, package, and other container carried by the individual; is inspected by a law enforcement officer described in clause (B). However, except as provided in subdivision(5) concerning a building that contains a courtroom, a unit may not prohibit or restrict the possession of a handgun under this subdivision in a building owned or administered by the unit if the person who possesses the handgun has been issued a valid license to carry the handgun under IC 35-47-2.

(IANAL, Not legal advice, etc)
Looks to me like you can't carry a long gun into your county offices if they have a manned metal detector (etc), but if you have a LTCH, you can carry a handgun or SBR (unless the building also contains a courtroom).
 

ICBM

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Jun 14, 2014
Messages
76
Location
McCordsville, IN
Looks to me like you can't carry a long gun into your county offices if they have a manned metal detector (etc), but if you have a LTCH, you can carry a handgun or SBR (unless the building also contains a courtroom).
Exactly.
To summarize;

1.) A handgun under Indiana law has less restrictions then a rifle or shotgun, if you have a license to carry handgun. This is because a local government can restrict firearms in certain situations, with the exception of a handgun with an LCH, excluding courthouses.

2.) Any firearm made to be aimed from one hand, OR a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches, OR a firearm with an overall length less than 26 inches, is a handgun under Indiana law. This includes rifles with short barrels (SBRs) and short barreled shotguns (SBSs). This also includes applicable machineguns, but the above items need their NFA tax stamp to be legal federally and in the state.
 
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ICBM

Member
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Jun 14, 2014
Messages
76
Location
McCordsville, IN
Sawed-off

I'd like to now point out that the law regarding Sawed-off shotguns has been repealed (formerly IC 35-47-5-4.1),
which gives people the ability to claim one as a handgun under state law if it's barrel is cut below 16" in length,
providing it's carrier protections under the preemption statute for handguns with a LCH. :eek:

Remember; IF YOU CHOOSE TO REDUCE YOUR SHOTGUNS LENGTH OR PURCHASE A SBS, YOU STILL NEED TO REGISTER AND PAY THE $200 TAX UNDER THE NFA!

A good compact shotgun recommendation that is protected as a handgun under a LCH.

It is also classified as an AOW so the stamp only costs $5 ! ! !
 
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