Hypothetical situation/what if

[Grapeshot]

Bingo^.

As to dogs "charging"...99% internet/media myth. End story. Unless rabid, or abused, most, even alledegly "mean" dogs are NOT going to charge or attack anyone without having been provoked or harmed.One thing you never hear in all these "news" stories of kids/people being charged or attacked by dogs is the side of the story those "victims" or families thereof, are never willing to admit- that prior to that attack they were messing with , or doing something to the dog, in the 1st place.

Something to consider: Dogs arent people -they act/operate/function mostly on instinct. They dont wake from a nap, go tooling down the street,thinking "hmm maybe some tasty little rugrat will be out and about to tear the throat out of".
They dont attack anyone out of malice, or for sh*ts and giggles- they do so out of defense for themselves, or for their masters-IF/WHEN they interpret a threat.

Humans, however..well, we all know Humnan nature. And there's no shortage of folks who DO wake up and say "hmm I wonder who I can find today to rob, rape, or kill" Those, are conscious decisions, acted upon by folks of a wicked bent.

A massively displaced concern, this dream, chalk it up to such, and carry on.

Displaced concern? Hmm...not if you or yours was one of the intended victims.

• An estimated 4.7 million dog bites occur in the U.S. each year
• Nearly 800,000 dog bites require medical care
• Approximately 24% of human deaths involved unrestrained dogs off of their owners’ property[SUP]4[/SUP]
• Approximately 58% of human deaths involved unrestrained dogs on their owners’ property

http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/dog-bite-statistics.html

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2011.php

http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html

 

[gunns]

I don't walk around with an umbrella, or a stick so I guess that advice sucks. I have been attacked on two occasions by dogs, they were not fake charging me either. One was up off the ground going for my throat, had no gun, so I jumped up and kneed it in the chest, it broke off and ran. If I had not done that, that German Shepard would have ripped my throat out.

The second attack was while I was jogging. A great Dane ran across the street barking at me charging like he was going to attack, the guy outside with his kids said and I quote "His bark is worse then his bite, you will be ok", just then he jumped up and snap at me and I was just barely in time moving my arm. If I had not jerked my arm out of the way I am sure he would have bit me down to the bone. I spun to face the dog and as he jumped to attack me again I kicked him as hard as I could in the chest. At the time I was taking karate classes (going for my black belt at the time) and I know the kick was good and as hard as I could make it. I felt the jolt all the way up my spin from the kick, the dog was huge, taller than me on his back legs and he did a complete flip in the air from my kick, landed on his head and got up to attack me again. That was when the owner jumped the dog and grabbed his collar. He then went on a triad about how he was going to sue me for attacking his dog.

So my answer is: Heck ya, shoot that muther. This thing about not being able to hit a dog, is BS, if you think you are going to be attacked, attack yourself. You have every right to shoot an animal about to attack you. I am too old now to defend myself from an attacking dog with fancy karate moves, my joints just won't allow it. But a hollow point will stop a dog in his tracks. I am a hunter and I can tell you that hitting a moving target at 20 feet is not that hard, but it does take practicing your marksmanship, allot.

 

[hermannr]

MN law looks simular to WA in this case. A dog that is not under control of it's owner, and/or on it's owners property it is basically open season if it is agressive to you or yours...also, here in WA, if it (worse yet, they are) is chasing livestock or wild animals (Deer, elk, etc), you are supposed to shoot it.

My personal way to handle dogs (that are not mine) is to be very authoritative and tell them to "Go Home" in a commanding type voice. It has been my experience, pets will stop what they are doing, and go back the way they came, wild dogs will not. If they keep chasing the deer, or come at me...they're dead...end of dicussion...The coydogs can clean up what is left.

I've even had one of my own dogs shot for chasing cows. The neighbors cows were pushing the fence between his pasture and my yard. My 5 little girls were in the yard playing and my Dobermann decided that those cows were too close to her girls, so she chased them off. Neighbor shot her, and the Sheriff could do nothing about it. Not very neighborly, but that is the way the law is written.

 

[Phoenix David]

Ok ive wondered. Let's say you/I and your/my family is on a walk, minding my/your own business when a nasty dog is snarling and barking at you when all the sudden charges at you/me/family member. In a threatening manner, could be a stray could be a domesticated What would/could you do?

If I felt that I was at risk of serious bodily harm or death I'd shoot it, no if and or buts, I am also confident of my ability to engage a dog with success additionally in my AO it is totally legal to do so.

 

[eamelhorn]

I had a Pugle a cross between a Pug and a Beegle, a very easy going dog. One day a woman and her kids walked by my home, I lived way out in the country, my dog ran loose.Without warning or any provoking, he ran out and attacked the woman,she had deep bruises all over her legs, thank goodness it was not one of her children he attacked. This dog had NEVER showed any signs of aggression,until that day, I had him put down, if she had of put him down I would not have said a word, EXCEPT, im sorry for what Buddy did, dont beat yourself up for killing him. One dog no pack and unprovoked.She and her kids had walked by my house many times, and he just boltted and attack i watched it happen. I didnt have the heart to put him down myself. If a dog attacks and they can and sometimes will put it down. My yard is now fenced and my new dogs NEVER go outside the fence.
So to the OP its a good thing to know what you will, should,or could do.

 

[Herr Heckler Koch]

Santo Fumo! Thank you very much for the citation.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=347.17&year=2011

Santo Fumo! Thank you very much for the citation. As a long distance bicyclist, often on a recumbent tricycle with my face two feet AGL, this and its statutory precedence is useful. Thank you.

 

[sawah]

Still, guys, be aware, as I'm sure you are that 'shooting someone's dog' despite the law has hazards:
1. You have to prove the dog was attacking you
2. You might miss and ricochet and hit something, someone;
3. There's some trauma associated with killing anything bigger than a frog for most people;
4. Just shooting at the dog, even if you hit them is no assurance that you'll hit a vital area;
5. Most dog charges are mock, territory defending stuff
6. On a bike or on foot, getting to your gun, getting a sight picture, and firing without knocking yourself over (if riding), or shooting yourself in the leg is very tough. It all happens very fast. The best solution is to escape or dismount and put the bike between you and the dog or spraying the dog with water from your drink bottle. On foot, interpose anything, jacket, newspaper, umbrella.
7. If you anticipate a dog attack, be prepared. That means non-lethal methods, or going on a different route if you see a dog ahead guarding his yard.

In the final analysis, just because something is 'legal' on the books does not mean a cut&dried, sure solution via a gun or a bullet.

====
Edit to add: if you -had- to shoot a dog, you better hope you have witnesses, or video, and that the owner doesn't sue. You're risking legal fees, hiring a lawyer to defend your story, and you risk ordinances that pile on (discharging a firearm in the city, for example), if you lose the case, I think.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Still, guys, be aware, as I'm sure you are that 'shooting someone's dog' despite the law has hazards:
1. You have to prove the dog was attacking you

I'm not a lawyer, but I assume all you'd have to do is prove you feared for your life/safety, just like other self defense shootings. Unless you have a cite that says otherwise.

2. You might miss and ricochet and hit something, someone;

Always a possibility, but life is not without risks.

3. There's some trauma associated with killing anything bigger than a frog for most people;

And there's trauma from being attacked and possibly harmed by an animal. The question is, which trauma would you rather deal with?

4. Just shooting at the dog, even if you hit them is no assurance that you'll hit a vital area;

True, which is why people practice. NOTHING is assured in life. Do your best anyways.

5. Most dog charges are mock, territory defending stuff

Again, cite?

6. On a bike or on foot, getting to your gun, getting a sight picture, and firing without knocking yourself over (if riding), or shooting yourself in the leg is very tough.

If you find it that difficult, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

It all happens very fast. The best solution is to escape or dismount and put the bike between you and the dog or spraying the dog with water from your drink bottle. On foot, interpose anything, jacket, newspaper, umbrella.

Yes, it does happen fast. Escape is a good solution, but what if that isn't an option? What if you don't have a barrier to put between you and a dog?

7. If you anticipate a dog attack, be prepared. That means non-lethal methods, or going on a different route if you see a dog ahead guarding his yard.

Again, we carry not because we anticipate being attacked, but because we want to be prepared for it.

In the final analysis, just because something is 'legal' on the books does not mean a cut&dried, sure solution via a gun or a bullet.

True.

====
Edit to add: if you -had- to shoot a dog, you better hope you have witnesses, or video, and that the owner doesn't sue. You're risking legal fees, hiring a lawyer to defend your story, and you risk ordinances that pile on (discharging a firearm in the city, for example), if you lose the case, I think.

The dog owner is not the only one who can sue. And again, life is not without risks.

 

[OC for ME]

Do you have to wait?

Only you can decide what level of force is required based on what you perceive at that moment. Many factors to be considered. You did stipulate 'big dog' but a little dog to you could be a big dog to a 2yo.

<snip> I'm outta this thread. Take my advice or wind up in jail for killing someone's pet and wounding a bystander while you swing your firearm around trying to hit a low fast-moving target.

Yet you returned.

Running away? Really? From a dog? With a 2yo in tow. How about this, the 2yo is in a stroller and the dad interposes the stroller between himself and the dog.

It's a dog, easily replaced. And likely should be if it attacks humans, especially little humans.

 

[MKEgal]

I have no respect for a person who is seeking permission to kill a defenseless animal.

Sounds like an anti ranting about killing an unarmed attacking human.
The way I read it, the OP wasn't wanting to shoot a dog, but asking what the assemblage thought was the proper thing to do, & if any of us had legal references to back our position (I think 1 person has provided such, & it wasn't you).

so foolish as to expend a round in a high chaos situation where they might harm another.

Which describes any self-defense situation.

Though I don't like being charged by dogs, 99% are 'fake charges'. Only pack attacks are to be feared

Except that they aren't, & single dogs have seriously injured people.

the ramifications if you guess wrong, miss, hit something else, discharge your firearm in the city, are too high to consider using a firearm as a first choice.

Just as with any other self-defense situation, the gun is never a first choice (except maybe against a bear...).

I have to wonder about someone who is PREWARNED there is potential for dog 'attack' by a single dog in the city

That would be any dog, anywhere, any time.
And attack isn't an affectation or thing that people make up. It doesn't belong in quotes, to belittle the concept. Dogs attacking people is a real thing that happens to real people & causes real pain & harm.

Take my advice or wind up in jail for killing someone's pet and wounding a bystander while you swing your firearm around trying to hit a low fast-moving target.

If it's low, & a person is average height, the trajectory will be downward. The bullet might skip but it's not likely, esp. if aiming toward grass. The steeper the angle, the less likely it is to skip.
And as with any other self-defense situation, if the dog is attacking a person the dog is likely to be close & moving closer, possibly already biting the person.
If someone can't control their pet, & that pet harms someone (or is reasonably perceived as being imminently about to do serious harm) then there's no legal reason the victim would be punished, even for discharging a firearm in city limits. (At least in most areas, there are sensible exceptions to that law, including self-defense.)

'shooting someone's dog' despite the law has hazards:

It's no more "despite the law" (vigilante, taking the law into your own hands) than any other self-defense shooting.
Almost all your points could also apply to a human attack.

6. On a bike or on foot, getting to your gun, getting a sight picture, and firing without knocking yourself over (if riding), or shooting yourself in the leg is very tough. It all happens very fast. The best solution is to escape or dismount and put the bike between you and the dog or spraying the dog with water from your drink bottle. On foot, interpose anything, jacket, newspaper, umbrella.

Most of which applies to a human attack.
If you have time to get a water bottle, you have time to get a pistol.
If you can aim a water bottle & hit the dog, you can aim the pistol & hit the dog. No need for using the sights, & in a self-defense situation there probably won't be time or room. Point & shoot.

Escape is good, except when you can't. When the attacker keeps coming retreat doesn't work.
(Seriously, use a newspaper to stop an attacking dog? I imagine that works just as well as on human attackers. Hit them on the nose. Yeah, that'll work real well.)

 

[sawah]

MKEGal, though I hear and respect your opinions:
1. A human attack is far more dangerous than your average dog attack, but it pays to be careful how, when and where you discharge your firearm. I advocate working with a partner and having non-lethal methods to deploy first if possible. You can train to shoot a human - a decently sized target. It's very hard to hit a dog, small running target and worse if you're moving on a bike. It is very easy to grab your water bottle it's in a slot on the downtube. A gun is going to be in your backpack or in a holster with retention. Unless you practice steering and drawing and shooting you will not be successful.
2. A dog attack is rarely fatal, nor does the dog (unless it's a pack) intend to kill you the way a predatory human does (one that you'd be forced to shoot).

So the parallels are not very good.

Bear in mind I don't like dogs, loose dogs, dogs that run at me, I don't like being jumped on, and I don't have a dog. So I'm not trying to champion dogs here, I'm just trying to give the other side of the issue of using your gun in certain situations. I've been attacked by dogs on the trail and know by experience it's almost impossible to stop, save out pedaling them, or having them taper off the attack as you leave their territory.

It's also a lot harder to prove the dog attacked you, and a bit less difficult in the case of an armed human (with a record). So sure, take your gun and use it if you find yourself in the Gravest Extreme of circumstances, but know the law and know the probabilities of success against a small, quickly moving creature.

 

[OC for ME]

The last paragraph there could have been your first post on this issue. Well stated.

 

[Xulld]

I carry one of these when I go on a walk. I have lived in bad neighborhoods with loose dogs on every street corner for years, been fake charged hundreds of times. When I see it coming, and its clear they are going to leave their yard I start walking right AT them. Not in any kind of overly aggressive manner, but to establish I am not afraid of them. Then if I get to the edge of the yard, ill just stand there facing them till they loose interest. They almost always do. Being calm, having a clearly capable weapon in your hands, and not showing any fear goes a long way to deescalating the situation with dogs. Only once have I been really worried, and it was a pack that circled and had all the signs of attacking. That time I went ape ****, literally. Making loud ape like noises, charging at the lead dog, swinging my stick. They backed off after I made the lead dog run for his life, but it was a little scary, and my dog was freaked out as much as I freaked the pack out. I called Animal control, they got a few of them. Normally I wouldn't, but that pack was out of control.

http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html

 

[Sinful]

Dogs are considered property, the shooting of a dog would be destruction of personal property. A lawsuit of such nature would be tried in small claims courts. Given such circumstances as the death of a charging dog would at the very most result in a judgement of the replacement value of the dog.

A life is worth more than a couple hundred bucks for a new dog. I'd say fire away and be done with it.

On a personal note, I would feed the dog my arm plug a couple in its chest, sue the hell out the owner for personal injury and call it a day.

 

[robdoar]

Dogs are considered property,

Bingo. Small claims at worst. No lawyers, no legal fees, and hey, you could be on TV.

 

[Herr Heckler Koch]

Claiming the dog claims, also, the at-large liability, the value of which is much greater than the value of any beast.

 

[hermannr]

Bingo^.

As to dogs "charging"...99% internet/media myth. End story. Unless rabid, or abused, most, even alledegly "mean" dogs are NOT going to charge or attack anyone without having been provoked or harmed.One thing you never hear in all these "news" stories of kids/people being charged or attacked by dogs is the side of the story those "victims" or families thereof, are never willing to admit- that prior to that attack they were messing with , or doing something to the dog, in the 1st place.

.

Unfortunately, you are wrong in this statement. I am a dog owner/lover. I have always had dogs around since I was a kid 60 some years ago. I have personally been attacked, and bitten, just standing in my own yard, by a dog of unknown origin. (I don't live near anyone). I have no idea where this dog came from, and I have no idea what it's problem was. It was a big male, and the autopsy did not show rabies. so, I just do not know, but I have scars if you want to look. No, I do not run and scream from dogs, or bears..that just eggs them on.

I also know when there is more than one dog (just like when there is more than one adolesent human boy) there is a bigger chance for a problem.

If a dog thinks you are infringing on it's territory, or challanging it, especially a bitch with pups, or a male looking for love, there is a good chance you could be bit by a dog with natural agressive tendencies. As I said earlier, my normal procedure is to use a commanding voice and tell it to "go home". ALMOST always works. When it does not, the solution is on my hip.

BTW: you are much more likely to be bit by my Dachshund than my Dobermann, especially if the Dachshund has the Dobermann near it. (it thinks it has backup)

 

[sawah]

I do not suggest an absolute prohibition against shooting a charging dog. It depends on the circumstances.

Some smaller dogs or other breeds might be more prone to run at you. I would not want to go into court and claim a guy's poodle charged me, I was in fear for my life, drew my firearm and missed/wounded him, and the bullet went into someone's house/wall/garage and no, I have no evidence, video or witness.

So, if all the cards are right, it's a known dangerous breed, you're a crack shot, you have audio/video and are walking with your lawyer and the circuit court judge at the time, by all means, fire away.

 

[Grapeshot]

I do not suggest an absolute prohibition against shooting a charging dog. It depends on the circumstances.

Some smaller dogs or other breeds might be more prone to run at you. I would not want to go into court and claim a guy's poodle charged me, I was in fear for my life, drew my firearm and missed/wounded him, and the bullet went into someone's house/wall/garage and no, I have no evidence, video or witness.

So, if all the cards are right, it's a known dangerous breed, you're a crack shot, you have audio/video and are walking with your lawyer and the circuit court judge at the time, by all means, fire away.

The same can be said of any and all uses of deadly force.

 

[OC for ME]

Small Claims Court? Maybe not. The cost of training the animal may be considered.

A good gun dog can cost you upwards of $15K depending on the farm if you do not train the dog yourself. If I paid to have my Lab replaced it would cost me around $20K to get a new dog to where my current dog is.