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Contrarian

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Id ?

This thread seems to be a hairball...


I will not provide ID unless I'm arrested. Officer Friendly is not talking to be because I'm his new pal - I'm a potential handcuff client. If I want a friendly chat, I'll meet him in a bar. :)

The referenced video is a good thing to watch; remember that you can decline politely.
 

PALO

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This thread seems to be a hairball...


I will not provide ID unless I'm arrested. Officer Friendly is not talking to be because I'm his new pal - I'm a potential handcuff client. If I want a friendly chat, I'll meet him in a bar. :)

The referenced video is a good thing to watch; remember that you can decline politely.

yet another perfect example i had yesterday of why the blanket policy would be stupid

had a hit and run. strong PC. went to the "hitters" house.

in brief, because she talked to me and offered a reasonable explanation, no arrest was made or charges filed. i was able to get her info for the other driver and no report was even needed

if she had not talked, it would have been a citation, or maybe custodial arrest. i had PC. no issue there.

likely she would have been found guilty, but that's another issue
 

Stanley

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..,

in brief, because she talked to me and offered a reasonable explanation, no arrest was made or charges filed.

...

likely she would have been found guilty, but that's another issue

So she didn't do it but if she exercised her rights she would have been arrested and likely found guilty?

Even though she is innocent?

And the only problem you have with this is whether or not she talked to you???

WTF???
 

wimwag

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this imo, is dumb advice. cops are not the enemy.

if you are caught red handed after you just murdered somebody, though... i would agree. unless you WANT to take responsibility of course.

however, on case law, the advice is correct that GENERALLY speaking (again, there is major variance state to state) in states where open carry is legal, the cops cannot stop you or demand ID for open carrying

the problem is, if a cop stops you, and you are OC'ing there may be additional reasons why he is stopping you, so he may in fact have a valid reason to demand ID, and you refuse, you will get arrested for obstruction

it is certainly fine to ask what you are being stopped for

i was stopped at gunpoint once for doing nothing wrong (long story) but the cops were justified

IF i had been OCing, and i assumed they were stopping me FOR OCing and refused to comply with demands to keep my hands up, etc. i would quite likely have been shot if i reached

and i was also required to give ID since they had RS

if a cop asks for ID, ask them "are you requesting it or demanding it?"

if they say they are demanding it, the best bet is to COMPLY, but to make sure you follow up to determine why you were stopped etc.

in many cases, it may be civilly actionable, or even criminally actionable

I have to disagree. I was stopped walking home from hunting a few weeks ago and initially tried being friendly with the police officers and deputies and told them where I was and what I was doing (hunting) but it ended up escalating into harassment that eventually made the news. I know this isn't about long guns, so I won't mention them again...but when you're doing nothing wrong there is no reasonable suspicion and the 5th amendment protects you, whether the officer wants it to or not. I refused and then refused several more times and was not arrested for anything. Yes, I was threatened, but I stood up for myself. If we keep giving up our rights.voluntarily, the powers that be will assume we don't want them and take them away.

This is my first post by the way. Hi!
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WalkingWolf

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I don't know any police officer that decides to not make a arrest of a person of their interest by what they say. If they don't make a arrest it is because there is no crime or no evidence of a crime. This is twice he has made this claim that he would let a person go on their word "Honest Officer I am innocent". I think every crook in the country claims they didn't do it.

If the officer is asking you questions, he is looking for evidence. Either evidence against you or a other person. Most people without a attorney have no idea what can be used against them.
 

Primus

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I'll make one more effort to explain about speaking to the po po....

For those that in familiar, you need RS to stop and PC to charge/arrest. Just as a baseline.

So if you get a call somewhere and someone says there's a guy with a gun right there and they make accusations such as you did something illegal. You pick. Anything. Waving the gun shooting the gun... whatever. So right out the gate if the PD has a named witness that meets a two prong test they may have enough to arrest without ever getting your story. But say they still ask what happened. Or say they know they have PC but might not be a "string" case. Well they ask you what happened. This is your chance to exonerate yourself. What if the complainant said that the guy from a certain direction or a store maybe. Maybe they said the BG was driving a car. Well you happen to be near the vehicle. You KNOW its not yours. You could provide key information that will exonerate you on the spot. Or you can just lawyer up get charged arraigned go to court to THEN say its not your vehicle (or whatever concrete evidence you have and could have used).

Say your girlfriend calls and says you beat her. That's enough all day to make an arrest. But wait you weren't even home. You were at the bar. When the po po shows up you could easily state you weren't even home. You easily explain what happened. Maybe state something like "go check with the bartender ". Bang... they check no charges. Instead you do the "nor talking to you" so be it then you get hooked and booked based on her story.

Also say she struck you first? How does the Leo know that unless you say it?

Its not just "I'm innocent I swear". You can provide valuable evidence on your behalf.

Do leos "fish"? Yes. Its their job to be fact finders. Can't find facts unless you ask.

I know for the majority this post will change nothing. I accept that. I just hope the people in the middle realize they can speak up and avoid a big case by speaking with Leo. Instead of catching a case they could have avoided because they followed some guys advice on the internet.....

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eye95

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DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE!

If they don't have RAS or PC, you are not required to talk to them. If they do, talking to them can only help them build a case against you. Nothing you say is admissible--unless it can be used against you. Stuff that can help you will be ruled hearsay and not admitted. The stuff you say that can hurt you falls into the exception to hearsay known as a statement against interest.

There is a video on youtube by the same name as the first sentence of this post. Watch it! Do not ever let an officer try to convince you that you can help yourself if you will just talk to him.

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<O>
 
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Primus

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As an even better example, just had a case yesterday where there was an armed robbery. A guy met a lady to see and apartment. He gets there pulls a gun and grabs her phone. Tells her hell be back. She calls us gives us a description.low and behold 5 6 minutes later see a guy sane description walking down the street. I stop him. We talk and I ask where was coming from. He immediately explains that he just came from store and shows me his bag and drinks he bought with out me even asking. Guess what? He was checked for papers ( we basically do it with everyone and it logs them into the case in case its needed later for detectives) and was promptly kicked loose. Never cuffed him. Never made him wait for the witness to do a drive by or show up. Just have a good night be safe and he responded likewise.

If he had refused questions he would have been cuffed and brought to witness or her brought to him.she would have said no not him then he would have been released. So he saved himself about 30 to 45 min of hassle and no cuffs by simple offering up some info.

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Primus

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Its personal preference eye. Would you prefer charges brought against you then having a jury trial when you could avoid it?

Good old George comes to mind. He spent a lot of time speaking with police that night and the next few days. They didn't charge him because he explained his side. Then when it went to trial the fact he spoke up and explained what happened helped him in his case.

Again each to his own. I'm just speaking from dealing with guys on a daily basis and am trying to help. It honestly doesn't affect me either way professional lay or personally. As I said I'd rather not see someone get pinched when they could simply clear themselves with a 5 minute discussion.

Good luck to everyone either way. Be safe.

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WalkingWolf

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Its personal preference eye. Would you prefer charges brought against you then having a jury trial when you could avoid it?

Good old George comes to mind. He spent a lot of time speaking with police that night and the next few days. They didn't charge him because he explained his side. Then when it went to trial the fact he spoke up and explained what happened helped him in his case.

Again each to his own. I'm just speaking from dealing with guys on a daily basis and am trying to help. It honestly doesn't affect me either way professional lay or personally. As I said I'd rather not see someone get pinched when they could simply clear themselves with a 5 minute discussion.

Good luck to everyone either way. Be safe.

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Classic stupidity. Had he kept his mouth shut and was arrested, then got a attorney, he would not have went through the BS he did. I agree with Eye, I would rather spend a weekend in jail, get cleared by a judge with prejudice using an attorney than go through what he went through.

Primus your advice sucks, and goes against lawyers, and even supreme court justices. If you arrest somebody without evidence the government will pay, do it enough and you will get fired. You then become a liability to the dept.

NO police officer in there right mind let's a suspect go because of them talking. There is either evidence, probable cause or not. If not you are a criminal for making an arrest you knew you had no evidence or probable cause. Onus makes a living off of officers like you claim to be.
 

eye95

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Classic stupidity. Had he kept his mouth shut and was arrested, then got a attorney, he would not have went through the BS he did. I agree with Eye, I would rather spend a weekend in jail, get cleared by a judge with prejudice using an attorney than go through what he went through.

Primus your advice sucks, and goes against lawyers, and even supreme court justices. If you arrest somebody without evidence the government will pay, do it enough and you will get fired. You then become a liability to the dept.

NO police officer in there right mind let's a suspect go because of them talking. There is either evidence, probable cause or not. If not you are a criminal for making an arrest you knew you had no evidence or probable cause. Onus makes a living off of officers like you claim to be.

His advice is good for cops. It makes what they think is their job easier.

I don't want to be judged by the cop on the street. No one should want that. It's not his job.

Primus, if you have RAS, you get my name, DOB, and address. If you already have PC, take me in. You are at least wrong about my guilt and probably wrong about having PC, but my lawyers will take care of that part. Handle me with care; I will exercise my rights, potentially to YOUR detriment.

Folks, do you really want to take the advice of a cop that you should talk to the cops??? Or the advice of lawyers not to talk to them. Rationality and self-interest demands the latter.


On edit: Here is a link to that video. This is a lawyer. There is a follow-up video from a cop validating what the lawyer says. Enjoy: [video=youtube;6wXkI4t7nuc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/video]
 
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Primus

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His advice is good for cops. It makes what they think is their job easier.

I don't want to be judged by the cop on the street. No one should want that. It's not his job.

Primus, if you have RAS, you get my name, DOB, and address. If you already have PC, take me in. You are at least wrong about my guilt and probably wrong about having PC, but my lawyers will take care of that part. Handle me with care; I will exercise my rights, potentially to YOUR detriment.

Folks, do you really want to take the advice of a cop that you should talk to the cops??? Or the advice of lawyers not to talk to them. Rationality and self-interest demands the latter.

I don't know good point about taking the lawyers advice..... I get paid either way my friend whether you go with me or stay home. I dont get any bonuses for bringing guys in. But guess who only gets paid when you refuse to talk to me and call him? I'll give a hint he charges by the hour and its not cheap.

Again to each his own I wish you guys the best of luck. Have that lawyers number handy and have the credit card nearby. Either way just be safe that's all I ask.

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eye95

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I don't know good point about taking the lawyers advice..... I get paid either way my friend whether you go with me or stay home. I dont get any bonuses for bringing guys in. But guess who only gets paid when you refuse to talk to me and call him? I'll give a hint he charges by the hour and its not cheap.

Again to each his own I wish you guys the best of luck. Have that lawyers number handy and have the credit card nearby. Either way just be safe that's all I ask.

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The point is, whose advice would you rather take if you are facing a cop who thinks he has RAS or PC that YOU committed a crime? A cop or a lawyer?

Ooooo...dat's a toughee.
 
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