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KYOWVA Mall

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
I made a point of looking at all the doors where I entered. There were no mentions of firearms. On both sides of the space between the sets of doors are the mall rules. Neither of these has any mention of firearms. So with no gun buster signs I assumed it was allowed. Tats what I get for assuming. I am emailing the mall manager today. I didn't get a chance to yesterday. Her name is Chrissy Dillows. Her email is chrissydillows@eggleston-associates.com if anyone else is interested in dropping her a line.

If you had read the "mall rules" poster carefully you would have noticed it does mention the carrying of weapons. It is on this sign where it states the carrying of weapons is not allowed UNLESS authorized to do so by law. We are ALL authorized to do so, so we can carry according to their own rules.
 

Markal1990

New member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Ashland Kentucky
Saw you guys were talking about the Boyd Co. Library and the health department. I've been to both a little over a month ago and there were no signs at all at the health department. I carried and had no problems. When we went to the library there was a sign at the second set of doors when you walk in. I believe it said something to te effect of, no concealed deadly weapons allowed on the premises, violation of this rule will result in loss of library priveleges. I may be wrong on the wording but they did have a sign up about concealed weapons I'm pretty sure. I carried in there with no problems. I'm pretty sure both people working behind the counter saw it too.

To big daddy xd, I dont know how long it's been since you were at the library so they Couldve taken it down but like I said the last time I was there it was up, just not on the first set of doors.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
Saw you guys were talking about the Boyd Co. Library and the health department. I've been to both a little over a month ago and there were no signs at all at the health department. I carried and had no problems. When we went to the library there was a sign at the second set of doors when you walk in. I believe it said something to te effect of, no concealed deadly weapons allowed on the premises, violation of this rule will result in loss of library priveleges. I may be wrong on the wording but they did have a sign up about concealed weapons I'm pretty sure. I carried in there with no problems. I'm pretty sure both people working behind the counter saw it too.

To big daddy xd, I dont know how long it's been since you were at the library so they Couldve taken it down but like I said the last time I was there it was up, just not on the first set of doors.

It states something along the lines of "No weapons, concealed or otherwise, unless specifically authorized by law." It is something to this effect. I will find out tomorrow if I can just remember to go to both places. I am going to try and get to them so we can get this problem SOLVED.
 

Big Daddy XD

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
43
Location
Ashland, KY
Here is the actual sign. Its posted on the second set of doors as you enter the library. I guess I missed it the other day.
 

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KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
Does Boyd Co. have an ordinance, Glockster?


No, Boyd County has NO ordinances relative to firearms in any way.

The last time I was at the health department they had a HUGE sign across their door that stated "NO CONCEALED FIREARMS OR WEAPONS!" The only reason they would have removed this sign (in my opinion) would be if they got word that they were being watched, because this sign was there for years. It covered nearly half of their entire door, which was beyond ridiculous.

I am about to go and pick up my pay-check and I am going to stop by there just to make sure it is indeed gone.
 

Big Daddy XD

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
43
Location
Ashland, KY
So after emailing Chrissy Dillows (Manager) she assured me she would get back to me on Monday 6/25 I have heard nothing from her. My follow up emails come back undeliverable. It appears its time for a phone call or maybe even a face to face visit.
 

Orion_13

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
71
Location
Paducah, Kentucky, United States
I know no one asked me to but I went ahead and contacted my county library for their policy and procedure manual. I first tried to get it online but when I went to the page EVERY thing was available and linked BUT that one document. It was mentioned in the list with NO pdf link. So three emails later I was sent the current 2013 Policy manual for the McCracken County Public Library. Guns, Weapons, Firearms was only mentioned in it once and it was under the employee side of the manual under reasons for disciplinary actions. There were no mentions of any weapons, guns, firearms or anything at any other parts along the way. I was told by Julie Hart, Director, that "For the past two years, the
Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives has been letting us know that we can't forbid guns in the libraries. They have been very affective in driving the message home statewide. I would seriously doubt that you will find any library not in compliance, but you never know." So not only are these libraries being warned by us but also by their own people! BTW, I did tell Julie Hart that she would be surprised what we run into as we patronize places across the commonwealth.

I have the file for anyone wanting it.

Orion
 

Orion_13

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
71
Location
Paducah, Kentucky, United States
Orion, if they have a "policy" to discipline employees for having a gun, they are not in compliance with KRS 65.870. You might tell Ms. Hart that. They can have no policy about anyone carrying a gun, period. There is no exception to that for employee policies. The State Library and Archives has been aware of this for over two years because I educated them about it, but Ms. Hart seems to be unaware that a new law has been passed since then.

I thought that employers were allowed to set their own policies when it came to work environment for their employees. What they can't do is tell you as a tax payer that you can't OC in a tax payer supported building. The library is controlled by a board of directors as a private organization that is setup shop in a county building.. right?

Under "Causes for disciplinary actions" as a heading there is this one line.

"Unauthorized possession or use of weapons, firearms, or explosives."

Here is the entire Section.
CAUSES FOR DISCIPLINARY ACTION

Each of these circumstances is a sufficient cause for disciplinary action against an offending employee:
Fraud in securing employment.
Incompetence in the performance of the duties of the position. The term "incompetence" shall mean a lack of ability, knowledge, or fitness to perform duties which are reasonably within the scope of employment. "Incompetence" shall specifically not be interpreted as "inefficiency".
Inefficiency in the performance of the duties of the position. "Inefficiency" shall mean performance of the duties of the position at a level lower than that ordinarily expected of other employees in similar positions essentially as a consequence of either a lack of effort or improper motivation.
Failure to perform the duties of the position because of neglect.
Insubordinate actions, including willful disobedience of a lawful rule, order or directive.
False representation to a superior as to the quality and/or quantity of work performed.
Drunkenness or drinking alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs use while on duty.
Involvement in the sale, delivery, receipt, or use of any narcotic substance not prescribed by a physician.
Absence without leave.
Use of sick leave in an unauthorized manner.
Any act or conduct prohibited by the established policies of the McCracken County Public Library's Board of Trustees, the Kentucky Revised Statutes, applicable laws of other states, or federal statutes.
Solicitation or acceptance for personal use of any fee, gift, or other valuable thing which may be construed as a bribe; that is when such fee, gift or other valuable thing is solicited by or given to the employee in hope or expectation of receiving treatment better than that accorded other persons.

Discourteous treatment of any member of the public where such person can reasonably believe that the employee is acting within the scope of his/her employment and where there is no basis to excuse such treatment.
Discourteous treatment of any other employee.
Negligent and/or willful misconduct resulting in damage to public or private property, or to any person.
Theft or unauthorized possession of Library or other public property, or use of such property or the services of other employees for unauthorized purposes.
Violation of any regulations, rules or procedures which relate to the conduct of employees of the Library.
A record of excessive absence or tardiness.
Engagement in a profession, business, trade, investment or occupation which results in a conflict of interest.
Unauthorized possession or use of weapons, firearms, or explosives.
Harassment of any sort.
Fighting or physical violence.
Failure to report on the job injury.
 

Orion_13

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
71
Location
Paducah, Kentucky, United States

No,
a private employer can have such a policy, but not a public employer. Libraries are usually "special taxing districts" and are not private organizations. They are specifically covered by 65.870 just like any other governmental agency. KRS 65.870 says "no policy" about guns and makes no exception for employment policies. "Districts" and "Boards" are public entities (taxpayer supported) and are specifically mentioned in paragraph (1) of 65.870.
Here it is:


(1) No existing or future city, county, urban-county government, charter county, consolidated local government, unified local government, special district, local or regional public or quasi-public agency, board, commission, department, public corporation, or any person acting under the authority of any of these organizations may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, taxation, transfer, ownership, possession, carrying, storage, or transportation of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, components of ammunition, firearms accessories, or combination thereof. (underlining is mine)

You might mention to Ms Hart that she and the board members could face a year in jail for that policy. That's in paragraph (6).

I've emailed her back and they are trying to work on the wording before the next board meeting. She is asking would changing it to say Violation of Kentucky weapons, firearms, or explosives laws is subject to discipline work ok? It replaces the unauthorized part taking away the assumption of the library giving authorization to it being a violation of a KRS that causes the disciplinary action of the employer. So it isn't the library making a rule about weapons but a disciplinary step as an employer in case of a law being broken by an employee.
 

Big Daddy XD

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
43
Location
Ashland, KY
Finally received a response from mall management.

Here is the response from my complaint to the mall manager.

I apologize for the situation you encountered last week at Kyova Mall, especially as I am sure it was unsettling to your young daughter. I have attached photos of the signs at the entrance that show the mall policy concerning weapons. I’m not positive as to the exact date that the signs were installed but I know they have been hanging in the entrance for at least 6 years as the signs were there when I was hired. As you will see, the top line states, “Unless permitted by law, visitors are prohibited from possessing firearms on the premises.” As a Concealed Carry permit holder, you are permitted by law and therefore able to carry a concealed weapon into the mall common areas. (Individual tenants may have more restrictive policies based on their company’s policy.) However, visitors are prohibited from openly carrying as it is unsettling to other customers.

I understand that you are protecting your family but since the other customers do not know you it makes them feel their family isn’t unsafe. Believe me, when someone carries a weapon into the mall I have at least one or two customers come into the office in a panic. The theatre here at the mall had to refund tickets for upset movie goers because they didn’t want to be in an auditorium with someone with a concealed firearm (he had a permit). It even happened when the weapon was carried by the game warden (in uniform) who was going to the archery practice held at the mall by Ashland School System. This catch-22 is avoided with the concealed carry as prevents others from becoming upset since the weapon is not visible. This also helps ensure that anyone with a weapon has been thoroughly vetted with background checks, proper training, and has a proper respect for firearms. As someone who grew up around firearms I agree that when someone is properly trained and has respect for firearms there is rarely an issue. The policy also allows us to prevent groups of younger people (they were in the age range of 17-22) from bringing a handgun into the mall and playing around with it. (This has happened during the time that I have worked for the mall.)

I have spoken to the security guard (he is an employee of an outside company) as well as the mall staff to make sure that they are aware of the mall policies. The janitor on duty that night is typically very mild to the point of being timid and in the years he has worked here he has never shown any signs of being aggressive with customers or tenants. While he claims that he did not follow you I have reiterated to him as well as the entire staff that you should have been left alone once you complied with the security guard’s request. I have also instructed them to check to see if someone has a concealed carry permit so that the weapon could have been concealed rather than returned to your vehicle which would have allowed you to feel protected as well as comply with the mall policy. I apologize that you felt harassed as it was unnecessary and, yes I agree with you, out of line. We have taken steps to ensure this does not occur in the future.

I hope you will consider visiting the mall in the future as we appreciate your patronage.

Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns.

Thanks,
Chrissy
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
Here is the response from my complaint to the mall manager.

I apologize for the situation you encountered last week at Kyova Mall, especially as I am sure it was unsettling to your young daughter. I have attached photos of the signs at the entrance that show the mall policy concerning weapons. I’m not positive as to the exact date that the signs were installed but I know they have been hanging in the entrance for at least 6 years as the signs were there when I was hired. As you will see, the top line states, “Unless permitted by law, visitors are prohibited from possessing firearms on the premises.” As a Concealed Carry permit holder, you are permitted by law and therefore able to carry a concealed weapon into the mall common areas. (Individual tenants may have more restrictive policies based on their company’s policy.) However, visitors are prohibited from openly carrying as it is unsettling to other customers.

I understand that you are protecting your family but since the other customers do not know you it makes them feel their family isn’t unsafe. Believe me, when someone carries a weapon into the mall I have at least one or two customers come into the office in a panic. The theatre here at the mall had to refund tickets for upset movie goers because they didn’t want to be in an auditorium with someone with a concealed firearm (he had a permit). It even happened when the weapon was carried by the game warden (in uniform) who was going to the archery practice held at the mall by Ashland School System. This catch-22 is avoided with the concealed carry as prevents others from becoming upset since the weapon is not visible. This also helps ensure that anyone with a weapon has been thoroughly vetted with background checks, proper training, and has a proper respect for firearms. As someone who grew up around firearms I agree that when someone is properly trained and has respect for firearms there is rarely an issue. The policy also allows us to prevent groups of younger people (they were in the age range of 17-22) from bringing a handgun into the mall and playing around with it. (This has happened during the time that I have worked for the mall.)

I have spoken to the security guard (he is an employee of an outside company) as well as the mall staff to make sure that they are aware of the mall policies. The janitor on duty that night is typically very mild to the point of being timid and in the years he has worked here he has never shown any signs of being aggressive with customers or tenants. While he claims that he did not follow you I have reiterated to him as well as the entire staff that you should have been left alone once you complied with the security guard’s request. I have also instructed them to check to see if someone has a concealed carry permit so that the weapon could have been concealed rather than returned to your vehicle which would have allowed you to feel protected as well as comply with the mall policy. I apologize that you felt harassed as it was unnecessary and, yes I agree with you, out of line. We have taken steps to ensure this does not occur in the future.

I hope you will consider visiting the mall in the future as we appreciate your patronage.

Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns.

Thanks,
Chrissy

This sounds reasonable.

However, you should send a reply and inform them that the law (the KY Constitution is the supreme law of this state) "permits" anyone to carry a firearm as long as they can legally possess said firearm, and therefore the signage is misleading.

Perhaps they should change the signage to say, "Unless permitted by law to carry a CONCEALED firearm..."

Even then, the permission slip just grants us the ability to carry our firearm concealed, and is in NO way a requirement to do so once obtaining a CDWL. There sign doesn't mention anything about having to carry a firearm concealed. If the manager is claiming the sign is meant to only allow those that have a CDWL, then wouldn't that also mean anyone with a CDWL could also carry openly since the law would allow them to do either and they are "permitted" by law to do so?

Just some thoughts.
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
And this prohibition still violates state law. On a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed the letter. It gave me a good laugh.

This is NOT a violation of State law. If it was a government-owned facility it would indeed be a violation of State law, but this is a private facility and they are under NO requirement to allow carry -- openly or concealed.
 

KySIGGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Louisville, KY
This is NOT a violation of State law. If it was a government-owned facility it would indeed be a violation of State law, but this is a private facility and they are under NO requirement to allow carry -- openly or concealed.

I feel so completely embarrassed right now. Apparently when I went on break yesterday I left this forum open on my work computer and one of my co-workers decided to post on here for me, because this is the first time I've seen this "post" of mine :banghead:. I apologize for the confusion, and I have edited the original "post" to reflect my opinion of the original work.
 
Last edited:

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
I feel so completely embarrassed right now. Apparently when I went on break yesterday I left this forum open on my work computer and one of my co-workers decided to post on here for me, because this is the first time I've seen this "post" of mine :banghead:. I apologize for the confusion, and I have edited the original "post" to reflect my opinion of the original work.

bsmeter.gif
 

Orion_13

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
71
Location
Paducah, Kentucky, United States
It sounds like you have them headed in the right direction, but they haven't gotten there yet. Explain to Ms. Hart that "No policy" means NO POLICY. They can't even have a policy that is word for word what a state law says, if that policy is about guns. Point out that the law says they can't "occupy any part of the field of regulation of" guns. She's the director of a library. She should be able to look up the meaning of that phrase. They can have a policy that says they can discipline an employee for breaking a state law, but it must be a blanket policy and can't specifically mention guns. It can't specify gun laws. It seems like Ms. Hart isn't afraid of a year in jail. Did you mention that she is committing a crime by doing what she is doing?

Although I haven't seen a "final" issue of their revised policy Mrs. Hart has sent me this email on Wednesday of last week.

"The board voted to remove the sentence concerning weapons from the Staff Disciplinary policy. Give us a couple of weeks to get it changed in different places. Thanks for the heads-up.

Julie Hart
"


Orion
 

Fate0n3

New member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
2
Location
KY
This is great news. I have been going to this mall for years and I have never once seen a policy statinf carry is illegal, until now. It might be because I come thru sears most of the time.

Has anyone looked into the Ashland Mall they have signs posted against carrying weapons even with a license. I talked with a person this weekend and was told they didn't care whether I had a license or not and even knifes were not permitted. I have attached a pic I took on my way out.

Sent From Mobile Land
 

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