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No guns allowed in our chapels (LDS).

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NewZealandAmerican

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Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb
I am a full supporter and active member of the LDS church and uphold the leaders of our church and the priesthood, worthy temple recommend holder and all, so this post is to appeal to the opinions of other active LDS people here on the forum who support RKBA and Open Carry. However I find it extremely difficult and troubling to accept that our church would allow a policy to prevent us from exercising the means to protect ourselves and loved ones by carrying of firearms in chapels and other LDS buildings. I don't know if the rumor is accurate or not that when the bretheren issued a letter to all the stakes and wards in Utah about 10 yrs ago I think that it was concern out of liability reasons rather than spiritual reasons or revelation from the Lord through the prophet to ban firearms from chapels through the law with BCI. I think that this policy is also in the church handbook too. My feeling is this Is that we should press upon the bretheren to consider removing the ban here in Utah and in the handbook too so that where the law in other states does not prevent church members from carrying in chapels may do so. And if it has been said that guns in church is spiritually disruptive to worship I just simply do not agree that is true!

I just think in light of shootings in schools and churches victim disarmament is not acceptable to be complicit with by this policy that we should fight it to be removed. In the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine & Covenants are several scriptures supporting the need and the right to defend ourselves and families from harm and we may need to be able to exercise this right more so in the future as things get worse economically, with crime and as persecution rises against us. Our leaders should be trusting us and be concerned with the fact that it's the bad guys they should be concerned with who won't care about their policy protected in law by BCI. Haven't there been at least 2 shooting incidences in Utah at a chapel since the policy 10 years ago?

If there is a way to get rid of this policy I think we could do it through the law or do it through petitioning our church itself. I don't know. I just hope that my feelings on this matter here does not make me seem like a rebel or an apostate. It just doesn't feel that the lord blessing us with free agency, the right and obligation to defend ourselves and church policy to be in congruence with each other philosophically, morally and spiritually. PLEASE enlighten me fellow LDS open carriers. I am just a simple man originally from New Zealand living here in beautiful Provo who loves life, liberty and property, family, church and Jesus Christ, and America as if I were born here with all my heart.

I have another question to ask. after reading this cite from BCI's web page Is it possible to ask my Bishop for his permission for exception to this current prohibition? I am asking because I was just called as building rep in my ward and I don't feel safe without my gun late at night to check up on the security of all the doors and windows of my ward building (since I have keys) knowing that it has been broken into in the past. I bolded the sections of interest to me that I could tell may apply. remember I am just a simple man with perhaps some straw in my head (below)

76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.
(1)

A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Firearm Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
(a)

transport a firearm into:
(i)
a house of worship; or
(ii)
a private residence; or
(b)

while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
(i)
a house of worship; or
(ii)
a private residence.
(2)

Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a)

personal communication to the actor by:
(i)
the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii)
the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii)
a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b)
posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c)
announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d)
publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e)

publication:
(i)
in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state; and
(ii)
as required in Section 45-1-101.
(3)

A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a)
revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b)
provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.
 
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MAC702

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Since the prohibition is well known, and publicly disseminated on the BCI website, if you get the exemption, I highly recommend that you get it in writing, especially since if someone knows about it (the person that granted the permission) you can expect that others will find out and you don't want someone claiming you misunderstood something and didn't really have permission after all.

The church is being very ignorant in this prohibition, and they are probably the ones who pushed the lawmakers for the illegality of it.
 
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twright

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I doubt you are going to get the church to change its policy. Asking the Bishop is most likely going to be referred to the Stake Pres. The Stake Pres. is going to defer to church policy. Your best bet is to remember that "no guns" policies do not carry the force of law in Utah until you are asked to leave. It's not going to keep you out of the temple. Use your personal freedom to choose for yourself.
 

J_dazzle23

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I believe it does actually carry weight of law in utah. Only the lds church, from what I understand.

I've never heard of the church prosecuting anyone for it or for trespassing though, so....

Concealed is concealed.
 

J_dazzle23

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I would tell them to go to hell and no longer go there. And advise others to do the same.

Jesus will understand.
Most people won't give up shopping at their favorite store or coffee shop because of anti-gun legislation. I doubt they are going to change their religious point of view for it.

Juuuuuuuust sayin :)
 

RemohGramps

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Jun 23, 2013
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Syracuse, UT
NewZealandAmerican:
It warms my heart to see you express your desires with such passion and enthusiasm, and I share that with you. You are certainly not alone in your love of God and family, and your desire to share that love with others. I share the concerns that you have about the apparent infringement of our rights, and also wonder how to deal with those concerns. I'm not sure what can be said that might give you some direction on this matter, other than, seek out the Spirit to help you determine what is the best path to take.

For myself, I try to remember the words of Capt. Moroni from Alma 43, and remember the words of the modern prophet and apostles from the Proclamation on the Family, paragraph 7. These things might guide you in deciding the best course of action in your own life.
 

davidmcbeth

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Most people won't give up shopping at their favorite store or coffee shop because of anti-gun legislation. I doubt they are going to change their religious point of view for it.

Juuuuuuuust sayin :)

Your right .. just offering a suggestion. Not asking the guy to change religions ... just not go. Don't need a church to be in touch with the Lord....he has big ears.
 

twright

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United States
76-10-530 is the Utah code,

I just read this section and it does sound somewhat compelling so now that I'm curious I will ask my gun law expert attorney friend just to be sure. However, I believe the purpose of the section is to allow different church denominations to be treated as an individual business, because Utah law allows concealed carry in "places of worship" as a general rule.
 

J_dazzle23

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Messages
643
I just read this section and it does sound somewhat compelling so now that I'm curious I will ask my gun law expert attorney friend just to be sure. However, I believe the purpose of the section is to allow different church denominations to be treated as an individual business, because Utah law allows concealed carry in "places of worship" as a general rule.
Hmmmm that could be right. I will look forward to hearing, I'm curious too.
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
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Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
Your right .. just offering a suggestion. Not asking the guy to change religions ... just not go. Don't need a church to be in touch with the Lord....he has big ears.
Now you are trying to get his wife pissed at him? [emoji12] [emoji12]
 

HPmatt

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.....is to allow different church denominations to be treated as an individual business, because Utah law allows concealed carry in "places of worship" as a general rule.

I think David is suggested you try out the little known denomination - 'faith in the long barrel' :). I know in Dallas you can attend church concealed w permit, as long as the church does not have state gunbuster signage at entry points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MAC702

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...Your best bet is to remember that "no guns" policies do not carry the force of law in Utah until you are asked to leave...

Please be very careful when giving legal advice. You are wrong here.

"No guns" policies do have force of law in UT for churches and for private residences. If you read the laws presented in this thread, you will see the many ways the church can officially notify, as well. It does not have to have a sign at the door.
 
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JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
I doubt you are going to get the church to change its policy. Asking the Bishop is most likely going to be referred to the Stake Pres. The Stake Pres. is going to defer to church policy. Your best bet is to remember that "no guns" policies do not carry the force of law in Utah until you are asked to leave. It's not going to keep you out of the temple. Use your personal freedom to choose for yourself.

Sorry---- IN the State of Utah "most" signs don't have the effect of law. But churches may if they choose have several options in which to make their feelings known about weapons. And those decisions DO have the force of law behind them.

Thankfully, the governmental penalty is that of an "infraction" only. I wish the LDS Church did not make this choice but the Utah State legislature did allow them this choice by law.

I do know that there was a letter a couple of years ago sent to the LDS church leadership signed by many firearms enthusiasts on a Utah state specific internet gun forum requesting a reexamination of the present situation.
 

NewZealandAmerican

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Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
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Location
Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb
Sorry---- IN the State of Utah "most" signs don't have the effect of law. But churches may if they choose have several options in which to make their feelings known about weapons. And those decisions DO have the force of law behind them.

Thankfully, the governmental penalty is that of an "infraction" only. I wish the LDS Church did not make this choice but the Utah State legislature did allow them this choice by law.

I do know that there was a letter a couple of years ago sent to the LDS church leadership signed by many firearms enthusiasts on a Utah state specific internet gun forum requesting a reexamination of the present situation.

Hi there Joe! Do you have anymore info on this letter that was sent a while back? I think we ought to try again and get more numbers of people behind it
 
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