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Open Carry In A Vehicle

Captain Nemo

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I think that a memorandum from the Attorney General could be in order as was done concerning the enforcement of the disorderly conduct statute re. open carry. A request from Senator Galloway would likely be honored.

A note on State v Walls. The decision was a reflexion of the extremely liberal state supreme court at the time. The arresting officer "spotted the gun laying on the passenger seat". He had to make no particular search. How then can it be said the firearm was hidden from view? Doesn't really matter because it is history and now case law, but it points out how fickle and unpredictable the Wisconsin court system is.
 

Outdoorsman1

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Silver Lake WI
Congrats on the passage of SB93.

My 2 cents.

The new law dramatically alters 167.31 in regards to handguns by allowing them to be placed, possessed, or transported in a motor vehicle without a case and when loaded. Since 941.23 was not repealed and only amended to allow exceptions previous case law still has precedence. There are only two major cases that impact this discussion Fry and Walls. In State v. Fry a violation to 941.23 was found for having a dangerous weapon in a locked glove compartment and in State v. Walls a weapon on a car seat was determined to be concealed when it was not observable by a person outside the vehicle. Lets say I'm an open carrier after Nov 1, and I am not a licensee cause I hate stinkin permits. I now have the ability to transport loaded and place my handgun in and around my car which gives me a lot more freedom. I can without question unholster, leave it loaded, and put in the trunk or on a seat with the door open. Can I put the handgun in the glovebox or drive around with it on the passenger seat? I would say that under the new law the answer is "NO". Without a permit a handgun in a glovebox or on a passenger seat is still a violation of 941.23. Can I have it on my hip and drive around? Still "No". Now at this point if you still hate stinkin permits your probably pissed and understandably so but it isn't all bad. God created dashboards for a reason and in my opinion you can drive around all day with it openly carried on the dash. If I wasn't getting a permit I would probably install a serpa right to the dashboard with some of that 3M no residue. To hell with basic gun safety when the legislature can't respect our God given rights. Perhaps It needs a bracket or something to keep the muzzle down. Open driver door remove openly carried handgun, insert into dasholster(TM 2011 uziel), get in, and rock and roll.

P.S. At the moment Anne Sappenfield statement regarding open carry in a vehicle is misleading. To be in a vehicle like a car or truck the handgun must be in the open. You can't have it concealed. The courts have made it clear that doors, glove boxes, and center consoles are a method of concealment. Keep it in the window or get a stinkin permit.

Ok.. this is not what most everyone is thinking... Open Carry, Loaded and Holstered in a vehicle = legal...

If it is holstered on my hip, how can that be considered concealed....????? As in Open Carry now is legal because it is not considered "Concealed" Carry...???

Outdoorsman1
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Chandler, AZ
Ok.. this is not what most everyone is thinking... Open Carry, Loaded and Holstered in a vehicle = legal...

If it is holstered on my hip, how can that be considered concealed....????? As in Open Carry now is legal because it is not considered "Concealed" Carry...???

Outdoorsman1

The safest bet is to get the permit.

I can't argue with the Captain or Uziel or Interceptor.

I know what I heard from the NRA rep and I know what the memo says, however, the actual law is silent so case law is probably in play.
 

Outdoorsman1

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Silver Lake WI
Wtf...????

I had already planned on getting the permit for the GFSZ thing, but now it is looking like I will have another reason .....:mad: :mad: :mad: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Outdoorsman1
 

Brass Magnet

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Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
I think that a memorandum from the Attorney General could be in order as was done concerning the enforcement of the disorderly conduct statute re. open carry. A request from Senator Galloway would likely be honored.

GREAT IDEA!

A seemingly simple solution to the problem instead of us going back and forth about the case law. You d' man!

Oh Phre-ed? Phred? :D Care to contact your favorite senator for us and see if she'll request a memo from the AG?


ETA: I called my reps office and they sounded like they would have no problem asking the AG for an opinion. Just asked me for an email stating our issue. So I'll get on that.
 
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safcrkr

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Location
Vilas County, WI, ,
It states...this memorandum, prepared at your request (Pam Galloway), describes the major provisions....etc....in a question and answer format. And please notice who wrote the FAQ response; the senior staff attorney.

Seems pretty clear to me. We can open carry in our vehicles once the bill is law and the wait is over except for the GFSZ's.

I have read the entire bill twice (the latest version) and again this morning. I have it printed on my desk in front of me. It certainly takes a while to go through it and reference back to other statutes and DNR rules to see what it means but...I am certain it provides for us to open carry without a permit.

To open carry without a permit in a vehicle was one of our biggest issues due to the "dance" we have to do now. I know senator Galloway and Kedzie were aware of this and fought to keep it in the bill.

Define "open carry in a vehicle". What constitutes "open" when you're seated in a vehicle? Case law has shown us what the courts consider "concealed". If your "open" and the State's "concealed" are one and the same, you'll lose. We really need some clarification on this. Is "open" carry in a vehicle the dashboard where it can be seen from someone standing outside, or will on your belt be considered "open" under the new law?

I'm left-handed. If I have a pistol in a holster on my left side, and I'm driving, it's between my body & the door. Who could see it? Same thing for a righty in the psassenger seat. Will this be considered "concealed" or "open"?
 

apjonas

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Sorting It Out

1. Wis. Stat. 167.31(2) is just that - a statute. It is not a rule, regulation or three-cornered hat. Violation of 167.31(2)(a) or 167.31(2)(b) is not a crime but results in a forfeiture.

2. Violation of 941.23 (also a statute) is a crime, a Class A misdemeanor.

3. The Wisconsin State Court of Appeals (level just below the Wisconsin State Supreme Court) has said:

"A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section". State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994)."

This is not dicta (unnecessary commentary) but a legal conclusion essential to the decision. Unless and until the WI Sup. Ct. or the Court of Appeals itself reverses this holding, it is the law in Wisconsin. All trial courts are bound to follow it. What could differ is whether or not in a particular case the handgun was "indiscernible from ordinary observation...." That is a question of fact.

4. The argument that it is impossible to comply with 167.31 and 941.23 simultaneously will go nowhere. There is no requirement that a person have a handgun in a vehicle. You simply do not carry a handgun in a vehicle and voila, you are in compliance with both statutes. There may be other, less drastic means of compliance as well. The question now becomes do the only solutions to this situation vitiate the rights under Article I, Section 25? It certainly seems so to me. As far as I know, this has never been argued in any case. This argument may be less likely to succeed since now a license makes any potential of impossibility go away. The license is not required to vehicle carry (which would be a constitutional problems) but the license makes vehicle carry a lot easier.

5. With the impending activation of SB93, the 167.31 situation changes. The 941.23 situation changes, but only for licensees. This is reflected in the Sappenfield memo. For non-licensees, vehicle carry per se is fine. What the non-licensee cannot do is carry concealed. What is or is not concealed will be dependent on the facts in a particular case. A handgun in a closed glovebox, console or other contained is, by definition, concealed. In a holster, on the dash, etc....once again it depends.

6. Being "within reach" is one of the three prongs of the test that the WI Supreme Court established to determine whether or not a violation of 941.23 has occurred. The three elements are:

(1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
(2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and
(3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

All three elements are required. Thus if the weapon is not within reach, element one fails. That is why having a weapon that is "out of reach" is protection against a charge under 941.23. Alternatively, if you do not know of the weapon's presence (good luck with that one), element two fails. If the weapon is not hidden (which brings us back to the Walls case), element three fails. In any of the three situations, you have not violated 941.23.

7. The question you must ask yourself - "Does my aversion to obtaining a license outweigh the consequences of possibly being charged with a misdemeanor?" Everybody's on his own with that.

8. One other possibility - a revision in the law that states that a handgun is not concealed if it can be seen from some vantage point.
 
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Interceptor_Knight

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Define "open carry in a vehicle". What constitutes "open" when you're seated in a vehicle? Case law has shown us what the courts consider "concealed". If your "open" and the State's "concealed" are one and the same, you'll lose. We really need some clarification on this. Is "open" carry in a vehicle the dashboard where it can be seen from someone standing outside, or will on your belt be considered "open" under the new law?

I'm left-handed. If I have a pistol in a holster on my left side, and I'm driving, it's between my body & the door. Who could see it? Same thing for a righty in the psassenger seat. Will this be considered "concealed" or "open"?
You will not find the words "Open Carry" in current WI Statutes or in SB93. It is simply a common way to describe the carry of firearms which is not concealed. What is prohibited is concealed. Concealed is interpreted as being hidden from ordinary observation. It does not have to be completely hidden to be concealed. The weapon simply has to be obstructed so that it is not obvious what it is by casual observation. You have to see it without looking for it. That is why a partially obstructed (by clothing, etc) holstered handgun is still considered to be concealed even if you can see the holster sticking out from under the obstruction.
Read this from the Walls appeal....

Handgun lying on front seat of automobile in which defendant was passenger was “concealed” within
meaning of concealed weapons statute, although police officers were able to observe handgun after stopping vehicle, where handgun was concealed to ordinary observation as automobile traveled down the
street prior to being stopped........
After both reviewing briefs submitted by the parties and upon hearing arguments on the issue, the trial
court concluded that the handgun was concealed within the meaning of the statute. The court determined that regardless of whether the police could see the black handgun lying on the red front seat upon inspecting the vehicle, the handgun was concealed to “ordinary observation” as the automobile traveled down the street prior to being stopped. Thus, the trial court found Walls guilty because the handgun was concealed and violative of 941.23.
 

apjonas

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Necessary but not Sufficient

What the changes "say" is that you may now load a handgun inside your vehicle so long as the handgun is not hidden....
You must keep in mind that this is not a Constitutional Carry bill. This is a permit to carry bill with some changes which make Open Carry easier. In order to carry a concealed firearm in a vehicle, there had to be both an exception to 947.23 (concealed carry) AND 167.31 (safe transportation). You may open carry in or on a vehicle so long as the firearm is not hidden. The point of contention is the condition of being "hidden", not with being within reach. It must be hidden in order to be considered concealed.

A violation of 941.23 requires:
1. The weapon be on your person or within reach.
2. You be aware of the weapon's presence.
3. The weapon is hidden.

It is true that the weapon must be hidden but even if it is, if 1 or 2 or both are false, you have not violated 941.23. So if the weapon is out of reach, 1 fails regardless of the answers to 2 and 3. This is actually a good thing. If 3 was the only condition that needed to be met, it would be much easier to convict.
 
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paul@paul-fisher.com

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3. The Wisconsin State Court of Appeals (level just below the Wisconsin State Supreme Court) has said:

"A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section". State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994)."

I agree with everything you are saying, I am just wondering how that ruling would of changed or if it would of changed if it was post Article 1, Section 25, which was added in 1998?

I guess the only way to find out is to see if someone gets charged with a concealed violation in a vehicle without a permit post SB93.
 
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apjonas

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See Relevant Case Law

I have seen people make reference to OC in a vehicle but I can not find any change to current statutes which declares a holstered handgun in a vehicle to not be concealed.....

There has never been such a statute. If you can find one, please post it.
 

BROKENSPROKET

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You will not find the words "Open Carry" in current WI Statutes or in SB93. It is simply a common way to describe the carry of firearms which is not concealed. What is prohibited is concealed. Concealed is interpreted as being hidden from ordinary observation. It does not have to be completely hidden to be concealed. The weapon simply has to be obstructed so that it is not obvious what it is by casual observation. You have to see it without looking for it. That is why a partially obstructed (by clothing, etc) holstered handgun is still considered to be concealed even if you can see the holster sticking out from under the obstruction.
Read this from the Walls appeal....

Then by your words, Open Carriers across this state are guilty of 941.23. Once I was standing within 10 feet of 3 LEO at a function, and it was 15 minutes before the realized I was carrying.

WE go shopping everyday, and lieterally thousands of people that we pass do not see it. OR might we be guilty of 941.23 if we are in a crowd of poeple as those other people are concealing our firearms.

For a right handed person, on open carry hoster and firearm are discernable from the passenger side window. That would not be any more concealed than when I stand strong side away from LEO.
 

comp45acp

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Then by your words, Open Carriers across this state are guilty of 941.23. Once I was standing within 10 feet of 3 LEO at a function, and it was 15 minutes before the realized I was carrying.

WE go shopping everyday, and lieterally thousands of people that we pass do not see it. OR might we be guilty of 941.23 if we are in a crowd of poeple as those other people are concealing our firearms.

For a right handed person, on open carry hoster and firearm are discernable from the passenger side window. That would not be any more concealed than when I stand strong side away from LEO.

....or sit in a restaurant booth strong side in. Nov. 1st I will open carry in my car/truck and be legal. This is the intent of the law.
 

Interceptor_Knight

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A violation of 941.23 requires:
1. The weapon be on your person or within reach.
2. You be aware of the weapon's presence.
3. The weapon is hidden.

It is true that the weapon must be hidden but even if it is, if 1 or 2 or both are false, you have not violated 941.23. So if the weapon is out of reach, 1 fails regardless of the answers to 2 and 3. This is actually a good thing. If 3 was the only condition that needed to be met, it would be much easier to convict.
Please explain how someone is going to Open Carry with the firearm in the trunk....
 

Interceptor_Knight

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Then by your words, Open Carriers across this state are guilty of 941.23. Once I was standing within 10 feet of 3 LEO at a function, and it was 15 minutes before the realized I was carrying.

WE go shopping everyday, and lieterally thousands of people that we pass do not see it. OR might we be guilty of 941.23 if we are in a crowd of poeple as those other people are concealing our firearms.

For a right handed person, on open carry hoster and firearm are discernable from the passenger side window. That would not be any more concealed than when I stand strong side away from LEO.

It does not require that they are cognizant of the firearm......

For a right handed person, on open carry hoster and firearm are discernable from the passenger side window. That would not be any more concealed than when I stand strong side away from LEO.


Only if you put your face close enough to lick the window..... :lol:
 

Interceptor_Knight

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I guess the only way to find out is to see if someone gets charged with a concealed violation in a vehicle without a permit post SB93.
There are alot of people betting their paycheck on not being charged with a 941.23 violation for holstered carry in a car/truck without a permit. I will be watching the test cases when they happen and wishing them well.... Personally, I will have a permit.
 
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