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Semi-Negative LEO Encounter

jahwarrior

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UPDATE:

i spoke briefly with the chief today. i kept it short and sweet. he didn't seem to interested, to be honest, until i told him i recorded the incident, on audio. then he got very interested. he first asked me if i had the recording with me, which i did. he then asked if i informed the officers that they were being recorded.

oops.

i said i didn't remember if i did, but i'm sure the recording would show whether i did or not. he got a little upset, and told me that i committed a federal offense by not informing them i recorded audio, and that i could possibly be charged with a crime. he also refused to hear the recording, saying that even if he did hear it, nothing on the reording could be used, since it was an illegal recording. he said the next time, i should inform them they were being recorded. also, that i should conceal my gun, and/or comply with officer demands.

:cuss:

i contacted a lawyer yesterday, who actually confirmed his story. there's a weird difference betwen recording audio, and recording video with audio. a videorecording would have been fine, and i wouldn't need consent, but i need verbal consent to record just audio. i don't get it, but apparently, it's a law. i still have the audio saved, just in case. i just need to figure out how to transfer it to my laptop.
 

Mr H

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IANAL, but I'm curious...

In a public setting, with more than 2 people above the age of majority present, I'd be interested in knowing where the "reasonable expectation of privacy" might come into play here?

I am willing to be corrected here, but I thought Fed law only covered recording conversations over phone, radio, etc., but face-to-face fell more under the state to regulate?

EDIT: Sudden revelation of logic...

If you could be "charged with a crime", how could the recording not be admissable, as it would show evidence of your alleged crime?

The math here doesn't add up. Methinks you've been dealt a smokescreen.
 
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jahwarrior

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i don't know what the difference is. as i understand it, a recorded conversation needs two party consent, whereas a video doesn't.
 

Citizen

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i don't know what the difference is. as i understand it, a recorded conversation needs two party consent, whereas a video doesn't.

There are a few points here.

1. I don't know about your reported federal law violation--you said the chief's story checked out with the lawyer. This is usually a state law matter.

2. Many states include an expectation of privacy angle. Sometimes its in a court opinion rather than the statute. And, sometimes that includes public officials acting in their public capactity since they should have no expectation of privacy when doing their public duty.

3. So,

a. Anybody got a copy of the current state wire-tap statute or statute on intercepting voice conversations?

b. Anybody got any info on state court opinions regarding privacy of public officials doing their public duties?


Maybe some google-fu is needed here.
 
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jahwarrior

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Kadar and Blk97F150, i was under the impression that it was legal to audiorecord LEO, as well. i'm still confused why a lawyer would tell me it wasn't.
 

kadar

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It is legal.

Because like police, lawyers don't know all the law. If they did they would not have to research before they present a case. Things change almost daily in the law field.
 

papa bear

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I almost blew a gasket when i read the chief's statement about it being against federal law to record a police officer in public!!

as i tried to calm down, i tried to think that this was maybe a PA thing. but then i remembered the the Florino incident and they did charge him with wire tapping. how did that work out ?

But, mainly it seemed that my original estimate was correct that these[the LEO in the OP] were not bad apples they are just the variety that falls from the tree of the dept.. JAHWARRIOR, do you think you would have walked away from the meeting with the chief if you had broken a law?

big points to KADAR, loved the memo. JAH have you sent a copy to the police dept. and the city attorney? if so, i would love to know what if any effect it had

and thank you for standing up. if it was not for people like you the rest of us would be in poor shape
 

riverrat10k

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Always love your posts, jahwarrior....

...and hope I can handle myself as well as you when a situation arises.

You must be a really "sweet" fella. You keep attracting hornets! Lay off the ice cream!

Keep up the good fight, compadre.
 

AFCop

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Oct 13, 2008
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Food For thought

Pennsylvania Wiretapping Law
Pennsylvania's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. Pennsylvania makes it a crime to intercept or record a telephone call or conversation unless all parties to the conversation consent. See 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5703 (choose Title 18, Part II, Article F, Chapter 57, Subchapter B, and then the specific provision).

The law does not cover oral communications when the speakers do not have an "expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation." See 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5702 (choose Title 18, Part II, Article F, Chapter 57, Subchapter A, and then the specific provision). Therefore, you may be able to record in-person conversations occurring in a public place without consent. However, you should always get the consent of all parties before recording any conversation that common sense tells you is private.
 

Citizen

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It looks like we need to sort out a few things to know for sure whether audio-only recording of cops without their consent is legal in PA.

1. Where is the PA court opinion referenced in the first link in Kadar's post above? Can somebody find that and post a link?

2. Does the holding in that case still apply? (Was it superceded by a later court case?)

3. Does the holding in that case apply only to video or is the holding broader, maybe applying to expectation of privacy without necessarily restricting that to video only?
 

Sonora Rebel

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Incredible. Why do you guys back east tolerate such insolent thuggery and abuse of authority under color of law from badged 'punks'? 'Just outrageous...
 

ViperGTS19801

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Feb 21, 2010
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Montgomery County, PA
Allow me to assist:

Pennsylvania is a two-party consent state. That means that in order for you to legally record an oral conversation between two parties, where at least one of the parties has a reasonable expectation of privacy or non-interception, you must obtain consent from both parties for the recording to be legal.

However, a police officer, in uniform, in public, while performing his public duties, has no reasonable expectation of privacy or non-interception, as has been found by multiple court rulings. Therefore, the recording of the police while they are fulfilling the above role does not require that you inform them or in any way make it evident to them that they are being recorded.

I AM NOT A LAWYER. However, I do have a rather significant amount of experience on this topic, and it is my understanding based on research and personal interactions with the police that recording the oral communications between yourself and a law enforcement officer while in public is perfectly legal. In fact, I would love to see the recording put on here.

Jah, if you're having difficulty with it, please contact me here and I will happily assist you.
 

jahwarrior

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UPDATE:

i received a phone call today from the chief today, who informed me that his department will be reviewing the open carry portion of the MPOTEC memo, and apologized for his officer's behavior. i thanked him for calling me and keeping me updated, but i wondered if the officer would be looking at any disciplinary actions. the chief replied that those details were kept, but to rest assured the situation would be resolved to my satisfaction. what that meant, i don't know.:confused:

i'm having issues loading the recording to my computer. my phone stores images and sounds to a micro SD card. i've been able to get images from my phone to my laptop, but it won't convert sound files or load them, in either direction. i've tried a bunch of different ways to get the recording off my phone, but with no luck. this is ******* me off; i'm going to have to go and buy a dedicated recording device now.:cuss:
 

ManInBlack

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Jul 2, 2006
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...I would have attempted to handle this situation in a manner as to not insult and infuriate those who are sworn to protect and serve me.

Well, sir, I hate to break it to you, but "protect and serve" is just propaganda, a company motto, if you will. They are sworn to uphold and defend the national and state constitutions, and in that endeavor, the unfortunate truth is that the majority are woefully lacking.
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
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UPDATE:

i received a phone call today from the chief today, who informed me that his department will be reviewing the open carry portion of the MPOTEC memo, and apologized for his officer's behavior. i thanked him for calling me and keeping me updated, but i wondered if the officer would be looking at any disciplinary actions. the chief replied that those details were kept, but to rest assured the situation would be resolved to my satisfaction. what that meant, i don't know.:confused:

i'm having issues loading the recording to my computer. my phone stores images and sounds to a micro SD card. i've been able to get images from my phone to my laptop, but it won't convert sound files or load them, in either direction. i've tried a bunch of different ways to get the recording off my phone, but with no luck. this is ******* me off; i'm going to have to go and buy a dedicated recording device now.:cuss:

Try the free AVS audio file converter and see if that solves your problem.
http://www.filestube.com/a/avs+audio+converter+7+0+2+479
 

Blk97F150

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...but i wondered if the officer would be looking at any disciplinary actions. the chief replied that those details were kept, but to rest assured the situation would be resolved to my satisfaction. what that meant, i don't know.:confused:

Pure speculation.... but I think that means since this is a 'personnel matter' he can't/won't give you a direct answer, but if you read between the lines he provided ('resolved to your satisfaction') then the cop was going to be disciplined.

Nice job. With the entire thing, from police interaction to follow-up. :cool:
 

MKEgal

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Jan 8, 2010
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in front of my computer, WI
Somewhat off topic, but in reply to the pictures posted by NewZealandAmerican...
The one with the cruisers lacking wheels? Priceless.

A friend of mine is a local (city) officer, & some of the cars for his station are parked on a public street within less than a block from the station, on an overpass, with street lights, no cover for at least 50 yards in any direction (unless you count jumping off the bridge, which would be quite painful).

They got tagged. :eek:
I don't condone the crime, but I admire the spunk. Someone got points for that.
Now if they'd only use their powers for good...

And even with the various bad encounters I've had or read about or watched videos of, I can't bring myself to issue a blanket "I hate cops" or even "I don't trust cops", because I know this one guy who happens to be a cop, & he's one of the really good guys, & I can't believe he's the only one out there.

(Actually, I know he's not. It's just that the bad ones usually get more attention.) :(
 
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