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Surry County and Preemtion

FBrinson

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Jan 10, 2013
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296
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Henrico, VA
Greetings,
Surry County Va is offering a concealed carry class this coming March. They posted a notice on their Facebook page today. The location of the Concealed Carry class is at the former Dendron Post Office. The Surry GIS website shows ownership of this building as being owned by the County of Surry under authority of the Board of Supervisors. The county has posted that guns and ammo are prohibited from this class.

My question is this: Would this fall under VA preemption law and does the County lack the lawful right to prohibit firearms at this class?
 

KBCraig

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I don't know the answer to your legal question.

I will say that it's very common for concealed carry instructors to say that guns and ammunition are not allowed in the classroom portion of the class, all over the country.

I don't defend that position, I'm merely stating it.
 

solus

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here nc
Greetings,
Surry County Va is offering a concealed carry class this coming March. They posted a notice on their Facebook page today. The location of the Concealed Carry class is at the former Dendron Post Office. The Surry GIS website shows ownership of this building as being owned by the County of Surry under authority of the Board of Supervisors. The county has posted that guns and ammo are prohibited from this class.

My question is this: Would this fall under VA preemption law and does the County lack the lawful right to prohibit firearms at this class?
put the conspiracy theories away...gezzz louise..

there are never live ammo in training classes, cc or basic or instructor classes and most instructors do not want nor allow unknown civilian's personal firearms in their classes!

nra's course mantra
No live ammunition in the classroom!
 

Ghost1958

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Ky ccdw classes require one bring their unloaded firearm to classroom along with the required amount of ammo. At least every ccdw class I sat in on did.
 

solus

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2013 seattle PI ~ A 50-year-old man shot and killed himself during a gun-safety class at a Bellevue gun range.
 

solus

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When taking the proficiency part of the class it is necessary to have a gun and ammo.
alas, shooting proficiency or competency is not mandated in VA's concealed classes!

per va 18.2-308.02, partial quote...

Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

soooo...
 

solus

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Ky ccdw classes require one bring their unloaded firearm to classroom along with the required amount of ammo. At least every ccdw class I sat in on did.
truly ghost...
krs 237.109:
(1) Persons age twenty-one (21) or older, and otherwise able to lawfully possess a firearm, may carry concealed firearms or other concealed deadly weapons without a license in the same locations as persons with valid licenses issued under KRS 237.110.
(2) Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the carrying or possession of any deadly weapon where it is prohibited by federal law.

further, ky sp site do not mention any completion of mandated training to obtain the ky ccwc:
QUALIFICATIONS FOR A CCDW LICENSE

further, dojky..
DO MILITARY VETERANS HAVE TO TAKE THE TRAINING CERTIFICATION CLASS?
  • No. They may apply online or take their discharge papers to the sheriff’s office. KSP’s CCDW Permit Office will make a determination based on their handgun training.
 
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Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Up until we,recently got permitleas cc , for the average everyday person , one,brought their handgun, and ammo to class .
For many years one had to demonstrate the ability to disassemble and clean the weapon, pass,a,written exam then shoot to qualify for the ccdw.
Later they dropped the cleaning part.

I havent sat in on a,class since we got permitless carry, but up until then the average joe was required to bring gun ammo, classroom, and shoot the qualification course. Which a blind person could pass.
 

solus

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237.110 (6) exempts ky peace officers -active/retired; federal agents - active/retired; ky correction officers - active/retired; as well as previously mentioned active/retired military & CG members from having to (quote 237.110 4(i(3)) "...firing of not more than twenty (20) rounds at a full-size silhouette target, during which firing, not less than eleven (11) rounds must hit the silhouette portion of the target; (unquote)

sidebar...55% target strike w/no distance delineated? thats ky's perception of live fire qualification!! no wonder they dropped training for ky citizens to conceal ~ geez louise...
 

cloudcroft

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Jan 13, 2007
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El Paso, TX
I know this is not on the original topic, but just going with the latest flow here (re: "live-fire-qualifying"):
"The passing score for the Texas LTC shooting test is 175 points out of 250 points or a score of 70 percent. The state allows three attempts to pass the shooting proficiency test."
You shoot 50 rounds at targets placed at 3 yards (20rds), 7 (20rds) and then 15 (10rds).
You leave your gun/ammo (and hearing protection!) in your car for the classroom part in the morning, everyone leaves for lunch, then in the afternoon (after lunch) you all drive/meet up at a range and do the shooting qualification part. Some instructors include lunch at their classroom site, others don't.
CO, however, has no shooting portion, just classroom. Consequently, students are told not to bring any guns.
 
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cloudcroft

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El Paso, TX
When taking the proficiency part of the class it is necessary to have a gun and ammo.
Yes, but they (here in TX) want us to leave all that in our cars until we get out to the range.
The problem with getting your CC permit in a state like CO (where OC is unpermitted and you only need a permit to CC) is some of the class locations are not in great parts of town, and after class as you walk to your car (at night) -- and you're not carrying -- you're vulnerable. You can't (legally) CC your gun to class (so you'll have it available after class) because you don't have your CC permit yet (of course), and you can't OC your gun to class because no guns are allowed in the building. However, since OC is "free" in CO (as stated), once you leave class/the building you can OC on the way back to your car -- IF you had your gun on you (but you don't).
It's really complicated/difficult being a "law-abiding citizen," especially when the local street-trash criminals have simplified it by carrying regardless. ;-)
 
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solus

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When taking the proficiency part of the class it is necessary to have a gun and ammo.
uh AP...did you miss the previous member's posts regarding the long list of exemptions to those citizens who do not have a mandate to engage in qual/proficiency/whatever in several states, especially the OP's post regarding no guns/ammo.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
237.110 (6) exempts ky peace officers -active/retired; federal agents - active/retired; ky correction officers - active/retired; as well as previously mentioned active/retired military & CG members from having to (quote 237.110 4(i(3)) "...firing of not more than twenty (20) rounds at a full-size silhouette target, during which firing, not less than eleven (11) rounds must hit the silhouette portion of the target; (unquote)

sidebar...55% target strike w/no distance delineated? thats ky's perception of live fire qualification!! no wonder they dropped training for ky citizens to conceal ~ geez louise...
The required distance was/is 7 yrds.

As I said a blind man could pass it.

The ccdw scam in ky was simply a revenue generator. It had nothing to do with training anyone, or anything else.


Most gun owning kentuckians can shoot and handle a gun by age 14 or younger.
 

user

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Northern Piedmont
Knowing only what I've read here, it sounds like this is not an NRA course, but one implemented by a local municipal government. Thus, there can be no lawful regulation of the possession of firearms or ammunition in the course, unlike the ones taught by NRA certified trainers. Ok, so let's assume that's true and that the Surry County Circuit Court would agree. So what? Would you rather they didn't have the course?
 

FBrinson

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Henrico, VA
Knowing only what I've read here, it sounds like this is not an NRA course, but one implemented by a local municipal government. Thus, there can be no lawful regulation of the possession of firearms or ammunition in the course, unlike the ones taught by NRA certified trainers. Ok, so let's assume that's true and that the Surry County Circuit Court would agree. So what? Would you rather they didn't have the course?
I would prefer that the government not attempt to regulate firearm possession when they do not hold the power to do so. I don't think that having the course in a gun free environment or the county not offering the course are the only two possibilities.

After I made an inquiry to the county if they owned the building where the class will be held they added the second line to their FB post, which I thought was a bit snarky and funny, but it also shows their arrogance and condescension to law abiding folks who just want to be able to exercise their rights.

"~~No Guns, No Ammo Allowed in Class For Safety Reasons~~
If you wish not to follow these critical safety requirements you are welcome not to sign up for the class."
 
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American Patriot

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uh AP...did you miss the previous member's posts regarding the long list of exemptions to those citizens who do not have a mandate to engage in qual/proficiency/whatever in several states, especially the OP's post regarding no guns/ammo.
put the conspiracy theories away...gezzz louise..

there are never live ammo in training classes, cc or basic or instructor classes and most instructors do not want nor allow unknown civilian's personal firearms in their classes!

nra's course mantra
No live ammunition in the classroom!
Did you miss the absence of those who do not have the exemption for a proficiency tests? The list does not exclude every citizen. One shoe does not fit everyone's feet. Whenever a proficiency test is required it is also required that one use a gun and ammo. Every citizen does not have the same firearm instructor. Every reader does not live in the OP's county. To say no proficiency test is ever required for anyone and no gun and ammo is ever required is misleading the readers.... Some classes require the presentation of gun and ammo in class and one ability to demonstrate familiarity with their function.

In your selective picking among the bones and trying to build your dream animal you cast aside the most important ones.

§ 18.2-308.02. Application for a concealed handgun permit; Virginia resident or domiciliary.

B. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, institution of higher education, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or online course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document that shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.

Yes Virginia does require a gun proficiency test which requires one to demonstrate their proficiency with gun and ammo. How else will they qualify for the above required firearm proficiency test?

Yes, I realize I posted the URL both before and after the above article; its to help reduce your confusion about the source of the information. :)

OH! By the way can you provide your source for your post?

there are never live ammo in training classes, cc or basic or instructor classes and most instructors do not want nor allow unknown civilian's personal firearms in their classes!
Is that post according to your personal survey or someone else?
 

solus

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hummm...

first and foremost AP, take a breath as you again notice the OP was grumbling about, oh here...
"The location of the Concealed Carry class is at the former Dendron Post Office. The Surry GIS website shows ownership of this building as being owned by the County of Surry under authority of the Board of Supervisors. The county has posted that guns and ammo are prohibited from this class."

the OP felt it was a violation of VA statutory guidance.

now since you already quoted my very first post to this thread...it addressed the crux of the OP's concern...there is no violation of VA statutory guidance but rather ...
no guns/ammo are allowed in training classrooms...did you see anything in my initial post where i mentioned a range or qualification or proficiency or anything activity outside the C L A S S R O O M in my post ~ nope!

ghost brought up the commentary about students are mandated to bring xyz TO the CLASS !

tell me sir(s) when was the last time you actively participated in firearm qual/proficiency life-fire activity in any
C L A S S R O O M?

unfortunately, the conversation morphed & degenerated on rationale/need/statutory mandates for citizens to accomplish qual/proficiency live fire, but the fact remains, as NRA pistol training is acceptable criteria in each of the states in this nation for citizens to obtain credibility to show the overseers the citizen can obtain their state's privilege card to carry abfirearm!

further, the source was provided ...NRA instructor's training plans explicitly mandates NO AMMO IN THE CLASSROOM during class settings...therefore my statement apparently is from the NRA's HQ training department!
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
hummm...

first and foremost AP, take a breath as you again notice the OP was grumbling about, oh here...
"The location of the Concealed Carry class is at the former Dendron Post Office. The Surry GIS website shows ownership of this building as being owned by the County of Surry under authority of the Board of Supervisors. The county has posted that guns and ammo are prohibited from this class."

the OP felt it was a violation of VA statutory guidance.

now since you already quoted my very first post to this thread...it addressed the crux of the OP's concern...there is no violation of VA statutory guidance but rather ...
no guns/ammo are allowed in training classrooms...did you see anything in my initial post where i mentioned a range or qualification or proficiency or anything activity outside the C L A S S R O O M in my post ~ nope!

ghost brought up the commentary about students are mandated to bring xyz TO the CLASS !

tell me sir(s) when was the last time you actively participated in firearm qual/proficiency life-fire activity in any
C L A S S R O O M?

unfortunately, the conversation morphed & degenerated on rationale/need/statutory mandates for citizens to accomplish qual/proficiency live fire, but the fact remains, as NRA pistol training is acceptable criteria in each of the states in this nation for citizens to obtain credibility to show the overseers the citizen can obtain their state's privilege card to carry abfirearm!

further, the source was provided ...NRA instructor's training plans explicitly mandates NO AMMO IN THE CLASSROOM during class settings...therefore my statement apparently is from the NRA's HQ training department!
Leo's were teaching the ccdw classes I sat in on. The NRA had nothing to do with them.

As I said for years one was required to bring ammo and gun to the classroom. At that time one had to demonstrate the ability to field strip and clean their firearm in class.
Later that was dropped but bringing the guns to class was still required so the instructor could inspect each firearm and answer any questions the gun owner might have about their handgun.
 
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