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What is Best Buy's company policy on open carry?

jdholmes

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Jan 27, 2011
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488
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Henderson, Nevada
Strangely enough, that 3"x3" sign may constitute a legal "warning" as to the conditions of entry. If you are asked to leave because you violated the owner's conditions of entry, and you remain, get ready to be charged with trespass.

It's just like newspapers that do all the "Legal Notices". All that's required is for them to have a minimum "circulation". Doesn't even have to be a paid for subscription, just something printed and distributed. How many of those "free" newspapers that are thrown in your yard, flowerbed, driveway, or on your roof, do you actually read. Doesn't matter because a "Legal Notice" published in one of them still meets the publication requirements of any law.

If you've been refusing delivery on all those registered letters and ducking process servers, sometimes all it takes to get your butt in a legal crack is for notice to be published in one of these cat box liners.

Notice is Notice, even if it's just a little sign one manages to overlook, as long as it meets the statute (if any).


I think you are misunderstanding the way trespass works. They don't even need that 3x3 sign to give a legal "warning"...all they have to do is ask you to leave. If you remain, in your words, get ready to have a trespass filed. The point is - that 3x3 had nothing to do with it thus nullifying it.
 

rapgood

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Stanwood, WA
Again, did anybody stop you? Were the doors closed? Did you say that you agree to all terms and conditions listed? No?

You walk up to the doors, and they open for you (or you push them open). There is nobody in your way. You are free to walk in without agreeing to any conditions upon entry. Things printed "in plain view" on the outside of the building? Who reads em?

The law presumes that you have read signs plainly posted outside of an establishment (whether you actually have or not) that condition your license to enter and remain, and that, by entering, you agree to those conditions.

A store is not a truly "public" place. It is a "quasi-public" place and entry may legally be regulated at the owners desire. No federal or state right can trump the right of a private owner.
 
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jdholmes

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
488
Location
Henderson, Nevada
The law presumes that you have read signs plainly posted outside of an establishment (whether you actually have or not) that condition your license to enter and remain, and that, by entering, you agree to those conditions.

A store is not a truly "public" place. It is a "quasi-public" place and entry may legally be regulated at the owners desire. No federal or state right can trump the right of a private owner.

The law presumes, does it? I think you presume the law presumes without actually knowing.
 

Tawnos

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Washington
The law presumes that you have read signs plainly posted outside of an establishment (whether you actually have or not) that condition your license to enter and remain, and that, by entering, you agree to those conditions.

A store is not a truly "public" place. It is a "quasi-public" place and entry may legally be regulated at the owners desire. No federal or state right can trump the right of a private owner.

Do you have any evidence the law presumes that? Is that a rational standard, based on the average reasonable man entering the premises?

What about places like the Bellevue Mall, where some doors have rules posted (in 2 point font, often behind a plant on the bottom right corner)? Am I expected to know what's on every door, or just the one I entered? What if the rules are different between the different doors, am I expected to read each door individually?
 

rapgood

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Do you have any evidence the law presumes that? Is that a rational standard, based on the average reasonable man entering the premises?

What about places like the Bellevue Mall, where some doors have rules posted (in 2 point font, often behind a plant on the bottom right corner)? Am I expected to know what's on every door, or just the one I entered? What if the rules are different between the different doors, am I expected to read each door individually?

The converse of there being a presumption that you have read postings outside of an establishment prior to entering is that the owner/curator of the establishment has made a reasonable effort to inform you of the conditions for entry/remaining. Clearly, playing "hide the ball" when posting notices to the public will likely be frowned upon by a trier of fact (judge or jury) ruling on a trespass claim, and probably wouldn't be enforced. It really depends on the judge. There are no "black and white" answers that can be applied to all scenarios at all times.

The test is not a "reasonable man" test. The test is for the sufficiency of notice. If notice is sufficient, the presumption of knowledge exists. If notice is insufficient, a trier of fact might very well hold that the presumption of knowledge doesn't exist. As is typical, these types of issues are very fact specific.
 

jdholmes

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Henderson, Nevada
:lol: Burn

Actually not burn...lol...I have experience with lawyers and much of that experience shows they talk out their butts at least half the time and often have no clue when it comes to law...so the fact you went to law school means nothing to me. Heck, I don't even know you did and since you didn't post any actual evidence backing up your statement it means nothing x2.
 
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Grapeshot

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Valhalla
Wouldn't, due to state per-emp, a sign that bans the legal carry of firearms not be a "legal condition"?

There is nothing in the preemption statute that applies to a private business.

RCW 9.41.290
State preemption.
The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

Indeed, that is a common misconception, that and the state legislature would not seem, through preemption, to have restricted state agencies, departments and the like.
 

rapgood

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Messages
598
Location
Stanwood, WA
Actually not burn...lol...I have experience with lawyers and much of that experience shows they talk out their butts at least half the time and often have no clue when it comes to law...so the fact you went to law school means nothing to me. Heck, I don't even know you did and since you didn't post any actual evidence backing up your statement it means nothing x2.

You make me laugh! :lol: I like people like you! I call them "clients."
 

Tawnos

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Location
Washington
The converse of there being a presumption that you have read postings outside of an establishment prior to entering is that the owner/curator of the establishment has made a reasonable effort to inform you of the conditions for entry/remaining. Clearly, playing "hide the ball" when posting notices to the public will likely be frowned upon by a trier of fact (judge or jury) ruling on a trespass claim, and probably wouldn't be enforced. It really depends on the judge. There are no "black and white" answers that can be applied to all scenarios at all times.

The test is not a "reasonable man" test. The test is for the sufficiency of notice. If notice is sufficient, the presumption of knowledge exists. If notice is insufficient, a trier of fact might very well hold that the presumption of knowledge doesn't exist. As is typical, these types of issues are very fact specific.

A place which exists for the purpose of retail sales and does not screen nor bar the public from entry cannot reasonably be concluded to be anything but open to the public. If the police, held to a higher standard of scrutiny, are not barred from entry to a place that is implied to be open to the public by the mere posting of a sign presumably outlining rules of access, how can you seriously argue that the general public would be held to that standard?

http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/appellate/102wnapp/102wnapp0641.htm
As we recognized in State v. Gave, 77 Wn. App. 333, 338, 890 P.2d 1088 (1995), the existence of a no trespassing sign is not dispositive. Although Peters posted a no trespassing sign near the entrance to his property, he placed an even larger billboard on his property advertising commercial services. The billboard faces SR 12 and advertises an RV park with full hookups, showers, a phone, a post office, espresso, and food. Peters contends that the access road beyond the espresso stand was private because he posted a sign reading "for RV customers only." These RV customers are members of the public who are invited onto Peters' property for the purpose of renting RV sites. An "office" sign hangs on Peters' "private" residence. Because the access road is open to the public, Peters' expectation of privacy is not objectively reasonable.

Seattle makes it a bit more clear that the order must be personally communicated. In every other case I can find, though, the case involved notice of trespass being given and the trespasser knowingly violating that. I cannot find a single incident where a person was charged for criminal trespass merely for entering a retail premises open to the public and knowingly or unknowingly violating things posted on the door. Merely making a reasonable effort does not meet the burden of it being beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew you were restricted from entry, and that is the standard of the state (citation if you need it, I just spent lunch reading through trespassing case law).
 

rapgood

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Messages
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Location
Stanwood, WA
A place which exists for the purpose of retail sales and does not screen nor bar the public from entry cannot reasonably be concluded to be anything but open to the public. If the police, held to a higher standard of scrutiny, are not barred from entry to a place that is implied to be open to the public by the mere posting of a sign presumably outlining rules of access, how can you seriously argue that the general public would be held to that standard?

http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/appellate/102wnapp/102wnapp0641.htm

Peters, the case you just cited, is inapposite to the storefront scenario. Peters primarily deals with expectations of privacy. The storefront scenario that we have been discussing is not about privacy interests of property owners. The agents in Peters had lawful access because the legislature empowered them to inspect facilities to ensure that they meet certain standards. When an establishment opens itself for commerce where that business provides septic services, it is subject to required inspection of any septic facilities it may have and that are being held out to the general public for use (although, the agent so empowered may have to resort to obtaining a warrant to do the inspection). RCW 43.70.200. Peters does not stand for the proposition that the general public and the police are on equal footing in their rights to carry firearms in restricted places. Moreover, whenever a business (or an individual, for that matter) asserts a trespass claim, that claim is a civil trespass claim and the standard for enforcement is very different than a criminal trespass charge.

The common law tort of trespass is an "intrusion onto the property of another that interferes with the other's right to exclusive possession." Bosteder v. City of Renton, 155 Wn.2d 18, 50, 117 P.3d 316 (2005) (quoting Phillips v. King County, 136 Wn.2d 946, 957, 968 P.2d 871 (1998)). A person has interfered with another's exclusive possession if he intentionally enters land or causes a third person to do so even if the person does not harm any legally protected interest. Hoskin v. Larsen, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 84704, 28-29 (W.D. Wash. Oct. 31, 2007)

How can I argue what I am saying? Because that is how the law reads. I don't make the law, I simply interpret it when necessary to advocate the cause of my client. Otherwise, I just let the courts do their job of law interpretation. Your misunderstanding apparently flows from your belief that trespass is always criminal in nature. Not so. A person "is subject to liability to another for trespass, irrespective of whether he thereby causes harm to any legally protected interest of the other, if he intentionally . . . enters land in the possession of the other, or causes . . . a third person to do so." RESTATEMENT (SECOND) OF TORTS § 158 (1965); see Bradley v. American Smelting & Ref. Co., 104 Wn.2d 677, 681, 709 P.2d 782 (1985). However, "[a] duty or authority imposed or created by legislative enactment carries with it the privilege to enter land in the possession of another for the purpose of performing or exercising such duty or authority in so far as the entry is reasonably necessary to such performance or exercise, if, but only if, all the requirements of the enactment are fulfilled." RESTATEMENT, supra, § 211. Peters v. Vinatieri, 102 Wn. App. 641, 655 (Wash. Ct. App. 2000). In any event, Peters does not stand for the proposition that a "blanket" right to be free of liability and to ignore conditions of access set by the owner of the establishment exists simply because "everyone ignores the posting."

Seattle makes it a bit more clear that the order must be personally communicated. In every other case I can find, though, the case involved notice of trespass being given and the trespasser knowingly violating that. I cannot find a single incident where a person was charged for criminal trespass merely for entering a retail premises open to the public and knowingly or unknowingly violating things posted on the door. Merely making a reasonable effort does not meet the burden of it being beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew you were restricted from entry, and that is the standard of the state (citation if you need it, I just spent lunch reading through trespassing case law).

Please do provide the citation(s). (and I find it dubious that, over lunch, you read through the entire 1835 trespass cases reported in Washington Courts alone). However, please ensure that your authority pertains to civil trespass (a tort, for which there lies a private remedy) and not criminal trespass (which is punitive in nature and provides for a public, disciplinary remedy).
 
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Tawnos

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Washington
Peters, the case you just cited, is inapposite to the storefront scenario. Peters primarily deals with expectations of privacy. The storefront scenario that we have been discussing is not about privacy interests of property owners. The agents in Peters had lawful access because the legislature empowered them to inspect facilities to ensure that they meet certain standards. When an establishment opens itself for commerce where that business provides septic services, it is subject to required inspection of any septic facilities it may have and that are being held out to the general public for use (although, the agent so empowered may have to resort to obtaining a warrant to do the inspection). RCW 43.70.200. Peters does not stand for the proposition that the general public and the police are on equal footing in their rights to carry firearms in restricted places. Moreover, whenever a business (or an individual, for that matter) asserts a trespass claim, that claim is a civil trespass claim and the standard for enforcement is very different than a criminal trespass charge.

The common law tort of trespass is an "intrusion onto the property of another that interferes with the other's right to exclusive possession." Bosteder v. City of Renton, 155 Wn.2d 18, 50, 117 P.3d 316 (2005) (quoting Phillips v. King County, 136 Wn.2d 946, 957, 968 P.2d 871 (1998)). A person has interfered with another's exclusive possession if he intentionally enters land or causes a third person to do so even if the person does not harm any legally protected interest. Hoskin v. Larsen, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 84704, 28-29 (W.D. Wash. Oct. 31, 2007)

I think it's hard to argue the Bosteder quoting Phillips quoting Hedlund quoting Bradley quoting Borland applies when a property is open to public use and is intentionally provided to be nonexclusive in its possession during certain hours. Of particular note is that the complete quote about exclusive possession goes further: http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/104wn2d/104wn2d0677.htm#104wn2d0677
In order to recover in trespass for this type of invasion [i. e., the asphalt piled in such a way as to run onto plaintiff's property, or the pollution emitting from a defendant's smoke stack, such as in the present case], a plaintiff must show 1) an invasion affecting an interest in the exclusive possession of his property; 2) an intentional doing of the act which results in the invasion; 3) reasonable foreseeability that the act done could result in an invasion of plaintiff's possessory interest; and 4) substantial damages to the RES.
Ignoring for a moment these cases are dealing with the trespass onto land not questioned to be open to the public, rather than the hypothetical store with a sign which is trying to sell goods to the public (and thus, ostensibly must be open for public use), we still find that there's no remediation available for a person who enters with intent to patronize. Such a person could not possibly be shown to cause substantial damage. So this hypothetical fails to meet both 1 and 4 of the prongs above, as there is no attempt at exclusive possession, nor does the act of breaking a posted rule of conduct cause substantial damage. And certainly, you may be civilly trespassed after violating these rules, but that wasn't ever in question, was it?

How can I argue what I am saying? Because that is how the law reads. I don't make the law, I simply interpret it when necessary to advocate the cause of my client. Otherwise, I just let the courts do their job of law interpretation. Your misunderstanding apparently flows from your belief that trespass is always criminal in nature. Not so. A person "is subject to liability to another for trespass, irrespective of whether he thereby causes harm to any legally protected interest of the other, if he intentionally . . . enters land in the possession of the other, or causes . . . a third person to do so." RESTATEMENT (SECOND) OF TORTS § 158 (1965); see Bradley v. American Smelting & Ref. Co., 104 Wn.2d 677, 681, 709 P.2d 782 (1985). However, "[a] duty or authority imposed or created by legislative enactment carries with it the privilege to enter land in the possession of another for the purpose of performing or exercising such duty or authority in so far as the entry is reasonably necessary to such performance or exercise, if, but only if, all the requirements of the enactment are fulfilled." RESTATEMENT, supra, § 211. Peters v. Vinatieri, 102 Wn. App. 641, 655 (Wash. Ct. App. 2000). In any event, Peters does not stand for the proposition that a "blanket" right to be free of liability and to ignore conditions of access set by the owner of the establishment exists simply because "everyone ignores the posting."
I thought the whole issue at stake was the criminal trespass law. Since that's what you initially mentioned, and what we've been dealing with. The point of citing Peters was that it gave some insight into how the courts might view a sign in terms of binding use of the land which is to all other views open to the public. Without evidence of constant and consistent enforcement, I think it would be hard to show that a sign of code of conduct is anything more than a "we will ask you to leave if you do these things" warning, if the general public may freely traipse in and out of a place. The Bellevue downtown mall is a place I keep coming back to in my mind, because I know its rules are self-contradictory to its own stores. For example, it forbids possession of any knife longer than 2.5" as being "weapons", yet there are stores selling knives and actual weapons inside the mall. At what point does one violate the rules of conduct if they shop there? It seems to me ludicrous that knowing the policy and engaging in the behavior prohibited may result in criminal trespass charges simply by obtaining a service provided by the establishment.


Please do provide the citation(s). (and I find it dubious that, over lunch, you read through the entire 1835 trespass cases reported in Washington Courts alone). However, please ensure that your authority pertains to civil trespass (a tort, for which there lies a private remedy) and not criminal trespass (which is punitive in nature and provides for a public, disciplinary remedy).

I was mistakenly reading the pre-amended version from here: http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/appellate/032wnapp/032wnapp0379.htm

The amended version is just a copy of state law with a note about what it used to be:
http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/~scri...=HITOFF&l=20&p=1&u=/~public/code1.htm&r=1&f=G

I wasn't claiming I read the entire set of cases. I'm saying that in an hour of searching I couldn't find any that dealt with criminal trespass charges resulting from knowingly violating posted policies. This is the citation regarding reasonable doubt: http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/appellate/086wnapp/086wnapp0807.htm
By statute, it is a defense to criminal trespass if "[t]he premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining on the premises." RCW 9A.52-.090(2). R.H. contends the State must disprove this public premises defense beyond a reasonable doubt and did not, and that the disposition of guilt must therefore be reversed. We agree.
 

rapgood

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Stanwood, WA
I wasn't claiming I read the entire set of cases. I'm saying that in an hour of searching I couldn't find any that dealt with criminal trespass charges resulting from knowingly violating posted policies. This is the citation regarding reasonable doubt: http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/appellate/086wnapp/086wnapp0807.htm

Tell you what... I suggest that a good way to test your position is go OC in a store that is posted "no firearms allowed" (or words to that effect), get trespassed by the store manager who says "leave the store now, you're trespassed" then simply stay put. After the police process you and book you into jail, call me and let me know how your theory worked out. Maybe you're right!
 

Tawnos

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Washington
Tell you what... I suggest that a good way to test your position is go OC in a store that is posted "no firearms allowed" (or words to that effect), get trespassed by the store manager who says "leave the store now, you're trespassed" then simply stay put. After the police process you and book you into jail, call me and let me know how your theory worked out. Maybe you're right!

Now you're arguing nonsense. The entire time we've been talking, it's been my assertion that the sign alone does not meet WA's standard of trespass, and that it requires the manager or some lackey to tell you to leave, provided you are at the business with intent and ability to utilize the business and it is open for the general public to do the same. The moment you added "get trespassed by the store manager" you have shifted the discussion. Nowhere have I claimed you may stay in a store after being given notice of trespass.

For being a lawyer, you don't seem great at reading another person's argument.

At this point, you're saying what I said in my first post to you. Does that mean you now agree that a sign alone does not create a lawful condition predicate to access when the place in question is a building open for public use (especially for commercial purposes)?
That is not a condition imposed upon access. Nobody and nothing stops you and says "read this before entering, do you agree?" The only way that happens is if someone who works there comes up to you and says "to enter or remain on the premises you can't do X."
 
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