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whom can you hold accountable?

solus

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ok, I understood an act of nature, but when do community leaders get held responsible when they fail to mitigate, year after year & over and over, the ravages these recurring acts of nature devastate communities costing this country's economy billions of dollars and doesn't count on the effect on the city's citizens having to deal w/o utilities, and so forth.

quote
Meanwhile, unchecked development in the Houston area is wiping out the pasture land that once soaked up floodwaters.

“More people die here than anywhere else from floods,” Sam Brody, a Texas A&M University at Galveston researcher, told us last year. “More property per capita is lost here. And the problem’s getting worse.”
Many scientists, experts and federal officials say Houston's explosive growth is largely to blame....

As millions have flocked to the metropolitan area in recent decades, local officials have largely rejected stricter building regulations, allowing developers to pave over acres of prairie land that once absorbed large amounts of rainwater. In the decade after Tropical Storm Allison, about 167,000 acres were developed in Harris County, home to Houston.

Some local officials flat-out disagree with the scientific evidence that shows development has worsened the effects of big storms. Mike Talbott, the former longtime head of the local flood control agency, told The Texas Tribune and ProPublica last year that large-scale public works projects — like drainage basins — are reversing all the effects of Houston’s recent growth (His successor shares that view). unquote

while not close to being an expert, i must disagree w/talbott, et al., when i watch news showing rain water spew up out of sewers to massively flood Houston's streets.

oh, and let's not fail to mention New Orleans which city leaders have said quite a few of their life saving pumps are off line or out of order.

who is being held responsible?
 

solus

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downtown Houston right now...

snide commentary not withstanding
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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I'm heartbroken.
Like those that chose to live below sea level in New Orleans, they knew or should have known the risks. No one took a gun and said: "Move, or we'll shoot your dog."

They should have demanded their community leaders take action, recalled or voted them out of office if they didn't comply. But.... they didn't. The blame lies within themselves, not with others. We need to stop trying to blame others for our own bad decisions.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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There is a disproportional cost to mitigation of only probable risk. The the cost/benefit is realized only when the risk is realized.

If emergency management was so easy then everyone might do it. I did radiological emergency management and spent fantabulous dollars on what-if that was never realized.

.
]
Socialism is what you get when you expect the government to protect you from your choices.

Because I live in a forest area the biggest that danger I could have some effect on to my place would be fire.

I do a lot of mowing and brush removal to help have a metal roof on the house.

If the government would come in through zoning or other stupid policy and say that I couldn't cut brush and mow had to put flammable roofing on they could/would have some responsibility if my house burnt down during a fire.

Other than that I take responsibility for where I live.
 

solus

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just like Flint's water debacle,

just like New Orlean's pump failures,

just like Raleigh's unchecked release of Falls Lake to 10 cu ft/sec w/o regard to those communities downstream, not once but twice.

and the list goes on where the politicians through repeatable mismanagement activities which cost our society billions of billions of dollars to patch work initiatives to appease the community yet consistently fail to fix the main cause on the symptoms.

lost off power tough to mitigate during natural events.

the Nederlands have managed to harness the sea which has significantly reduced surge issues as well as control of massive rain run off.

yet, the GREATEST country in the world still struggles wasting, as mentioned billions and billions of money as well as facilitating the needless suffering to it's citizens...WHY?
 
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solus

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Socialism is what you get when you expect the government to protect you from your choices.

Because I live in a forest area the biggest that danger I could have some effect on to my place would be fire.

I do a lot of mowing and brush removal to help have a metal roof on the house.

If the government would come in through zoning or other stupid policy and say that I couldn't cut brush and mow had to put flammable roofing on they could/would have some responsibility if my house burnt down during a fire.

Other than that I take responsibility for where I live.
sorry FI, socialism is an economic theory ~ period.


now FI, out of the 558 wildfires in WI this year, could some of them have result due to mis-issuance of a burn permit by the local governmental entity? if so and your metal roofed house were engulfed and destroyed due to this administrative error do you honestly believe you will hear the government say they screwed up and will stand up and take responsibility for your losses?

oh wait, you take responsibility for where you live...
 

OC for ME

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The pasture land would still be pasture land if there were money in it remaining pasture land. Blame the iPhone and the internet before you blame a government drone. People choose to live where they do not have to mow a lawn.
 

solus

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As Hurricane Harvey churned toward the Texas coast, Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner told people to stay put. Don't evacuate, he said. Ride out the storm.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott sounded a different note, telling Houstonians that if he were living in the area, he'd head north. "If you have the ability to evacuate and go someplace else for a little while, that would be good."


Local officials, in response, doubled down on their advice: Don't go.

unquote
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/28/546721363/why-didn-t-officials-order-the-evacuation-of-houston

sorry, this bloody hurricane didn't sneak up on texas whatsoever....

and the entire country is going to be paying for the politico's asinine decision making skills for decades!
 

solus

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Hurricane Harvey death toll as of midnight 29 Aug stands at ..... 9.
How many people died just evacuating from Hurricane Rita?
quote from wiki
As an estimated 2.5 – 3.7 million people evacuated the Texas coastline, a significant heat wave
affected the region.

The combination of severe gridlock and excessive heat led to between 90 and 118 deaths even before the storm arrived.

However, it was suspected that most of the 67 deaths attributed to heat stress were a combination of hyperthermia and chronic health conditions. In addition to the heat-related deaths, 23 nursing home evacuees were killed after a bus caught fire. unquote (67+23=90)

odd to have such a large gap of factual number of deaths, e.g. between...28?

oh to my learned colleague in GA...the houston mayor ordered the manditory evacuation!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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"... oh to my learned colleague in GA...the Houston mayor ordered the mandatory evacuation!...
Sorry, somewhat lost; do you mean in 2005 or 2017's hurricane?

Perhaps they weighed one against the other, factoring in other circumstances such as there being no storm surge expected, and determined that fewer people might be lost if they did Not evacuate?

One fact is indisputable however, more people died in the Rita evacuation that died in the Harvey hurricane ... so far.
 

solus

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Sorry, somewhat lost; do you mean in 2005 or 2017's hurricane?

Perhaps they weighed one against the other, factoring in other circumstances such as there being no storm surge expected, and determined that fewer people might be lost if they did Not evacuate?

One fact is indisputable however, more people died in the Rita evacuation that died in the Harvey hurricane ... so far.
sorry, you got lost per se, but...your quoted post was completely about the subject you brought to the thread ~ RITA!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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oh to my learned colleague in GA...the Houston mayor ordered the mandatory evacuation!
Okay, so Rita.
Yes, there was a mandatory evacuation order for Rita.
Yes, there were dozens of people killed evacuating (70-something by some accounts) from Rita.
Yes, there was no mandatory evacuation order for Harvey.

If the mayor and governor feared a repeat of the Rita evacuation, then the 'shelter in place' order was the right thing to do.
Certainly, no More people lost their lives as a result of not evacuating than lost their lives doing so in the previous incident.

Do you maintain that evacuation would have saved more people than were lost as a result of Harvey?
 
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solus

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Okay, so Rita.
Yes, there was a mandatory evacuation order for Rita.
Yes, there were dozens of people killed evacuating (70-something by some accounts) from Rita.
Yes, there was no mandatory evacuation order for Harvey.

If the mayor and governor feared a repeat of the Rita evacuation, then the 'shelter in place' order was the right thing to do.
Certainly, no More people lost their lives as a result of not evacuating than lost their lives doing so in the previous incident.

Do you maintain that evacuation would have saved more people than were lost as a result of Harvey?
uh, mate, you brought previous incidents into the conversation to provide the confusion factor and i provided a cite where upwards 118 died during 2005 previous incident (67 + 23 on bus which caught fire), you have again reiterated your statement about the current minimal loss of life.

if you wish to bring up catastrophe...how bout Katrina ~ 1.8K souls perished and this storm only dumped < 10 inches of rain!

my original question, whom can you hold accountable, is the topic of the thread and CoL has responded appropriately.

and please in the future, do not project what what you believe i maintain...remember, the post you are quibbling about concerned the Governor's direction, countermanded by the Mayor and his chief lackey to stay put putting Houston's citizens into peril from massive flooding.
 

solus

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well, best laid plan of...

1. Several big political fights, however, are looming over the cost of recovery and rebuilding. https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/political-fights-loom-over-cost-of-harvey-recovery/

2. But officials admit there aren't enough helicopters, boats or high-water vehicles to reach everyone. https://www.cbsnews.com/evening-news/

3. Houston Wasn’t Built for a Storm Like This It won’t be next time either. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/metropolis/2017/08/houston_wasn_t_built_to_withstand_a_storm_like_harvey.html

3a. To make matters worse, money-hungry officials also encouraged development in low-lying, flood-prone areas without regard to future risk. There have been more than 7,000 units built in the hundred-year floodplain since 2010, according to a ProPublica/Texas Tribune analysis.

3b. Last year, the longtime head of the Harris County flood control district, Mike Talbott, told ProPublica that his agency had no plans to study the impact of climate change on the region’s flooding problems. talbott's rationale:
Of the astonishing frequency of huge floods the city has been getting, he said, “I don't think it's the new normal.” He also criticized scientists
and conservationists for being “anti-development.” “They have an agenda ... their agenda to protect the environment overrides common sense,”

4. New Orleans is about to get hit with Harvey w/12 of their communities flood pumps inoperative! 170829 CBS even news.
 

WalkingWolf

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It's not like every hurricane doesn't come with advanced warning. Rita was a colossal non planned evacuation FUBAR. Everybody knows the time to order an evacuation is not 24 hours before the storm hits. It should have started when one of the projected paths is in line with a city. Everybody that lives in hurricane zones should know where there home sits on flood levels. It is not that hard to get the homes elevation. The city should have taken time years ago to identify those neighborhoods susceptible to extreme flooding. We know where most of them are in NC from experience. There is no excuse for getting caught with pants down, whether in Texas, or NC.

The people bare the blame for not being responsible, the local leadership bares the blame for wasting tax dollars, and not planning.
 
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solus

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It's not like every hurricane doesn't come with advanced warning. Rita was a colossal non planned evacuation FUBAR. Everybody knows the time to order an evacuation is not 24 hours before the storm hits. It should have started when one of the projected paths is in line with a city. Everybody that lives in hurricane zones should know where there home sits on flood levels. It is not that hard to get the homes elevation. The city should have taken time years ago to identify those neighborhoods susceptible to extreme flooding. We know where most of them are in NC from experience. There is no excuse for getting caught with pants down, whether in Texas, or NC.

The people bare the blame for not being responsible, the local leadership bares the blame for wasting tax dollars, and not planning.

this is commentary i can live with so now if we can get the people to be responsible to get rid of local leadership to do appropriate planning life would be great!!
 
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