You stated the cop asked "Can I talk to you?" and then you say that is a detainment.
Other than the obvious Handle, you must be a Cop because you conveniently left out the part where the speaker was cornered. We both know that weather one feels free to leave involves far more than just words. I've never, ever been 'consensually' approached by a Cop. EVER, not even one time. Always blocking my bath, grabbing me, knocking me down, etc... Accompanied by what seems like a verbal consensual request, but physically, very much NOT consensual.
If that condition persists, you are still detained. Period. There is no argument. Is there any doubt a person is being detained when their hands are twisted the wrong direction behind their back, inhaling dirt and grass, and being asked "Mind if I ask you a few questions?" Really? That's consensual?
My example above isn't that extreme, but it's still a physical detainment accompanied by a falsely passive query. I'm suggesting that people not fall for that, acknowledge that they ARE being detained, and establish such on their voice/video recorders.
Maybe not all Cops are that dirty up there. but so far, pretending my example didn't include it, makes you kinda look bad to me...
You stated that you are detained until the cops says otherwise? "If he says nothing, he detained you"? That makes no sense.
Makes perfect sense. If 4 cops surround you and prevent you from moving in any direction, you're detained until they say otherwise and get out of the way. Period. If they hold you down on the ground, cuff you, and say you're free to go as they turn out your pockets, uh, dur... Their words mean nothing.
Can you find case law where the police have to tell you that you aren't being detained? You can't cause there isn't any, and you are incorrect.
Actually, yes I can, and we both know it. But since you're playing the willful ignorance game, I'm not citing it.
Something about how even a tone of voice can make a person feel they are not free to go... It's a rather famous case cited here many times. How many times have we both read it? You're pretending to miss the point I hammered over and over again in that post. The Officer, that means YOU, are not the one who makes the determination. Detainment occurs when your victim, er, subject, (reasonably) feels they are not free to leave. Period. A Cop blocking my path with his hand on his gun pretty well covers it. Definitely NOT free to leave. I'm not going to ASK if I'm being detained, because I know I am.
If you request (up to you), I can list some VA case law that says that police don't have to tell someone they aren't being detained or that they are free to leave. Police aren't going to tell you you aren't being detained because they don't have to.
If you state to the Officer that you know you aren't free to go, and said Officer does not contradict this; it's detainment. Period. No argument. If the Officer makes it clear that I am not free to go, by words, actions, tone of voice, etc... Then my butt is being detained. He better have RAS/PC.
The carefully worded question is not a weapon. It is an opportunity for a Cop to back off when he's crossed the line. If he doesn't want to take that opportunity...
Instead of attempting witty remarks, just tell the officer you don't want to talk and walk away.
Uh, no. You are at this point resisting detainment. And attempting to Flee. Ask any dirty Cop. That is, the kind of cop who would initiate an illegitimate detainment to begin with. By the nature of this circumstance, the Good Cops (if there is such a thing) won't be doing it and this matter it moot for them. This discussion relates exclusively to Dirty Cops.
Attempting to escape a detainment by walking away results, almost every time, in being arrested. Then a false report claiming the copy-and-pasted phrase "The subject went limp and flailed his arms, I then took the subject into custody for resisting without violence." It's hard to find a police report in this town that doesn't have that phrase in it, verbatim. They all say it, whether it happened or not. I've watched Cops walk up behind a random guy and just start cuffing for no damn reason at all, and guess what, this line was in the report. Poor slob was just standing in line at Subway! Had no idea! If I hadn't been willing to stand up as a witness, he'd have a record now and never did anything wrong! Cop just felt like screwing with someone that day. How many times has he gotten away with it? Continuing to? I digress...
It isn't an attempt at witty remarks. It's a way of saying "Hey, uh, I know you just seized my person and all, but do you really want to be doing that for no good reason?" And if he keeps it that way, well, he keeps it that way. You're being detained for no good reason.... Dur.
If you are detained, they will tell you to stop at that point and make it clear that you aren't free to go.
Which has already been determined... I don't need a Cop to tell me when I'm being detained. I already know when I am not free to leave.
I have never seen an officer or heard of an officer randomly walking up to a citizen openly carrying and telling them that they are scaring people in a manner to detain them. Never. Can you provide any incidents in which this occurred?
Really? You haven't ever been to this Forum before? this is your first visit? Virtually every unpleasant encounter documented in this place shows the Cops using that excuse. It's on Audio and Video all over the place. This can't possibly be an argument you want to make.
Why are we having all these discussions about GATTTOTP then? Is that something you're also conveniently pretending not to know about? You're the one contradicting known facts. You're the one who needs the Citation.
I thought this site banned legal advice unless it is supported with citations, right Citizen? So Mr. ixtow, will you please provide legal cites that support your legal advice?
Wow, you really are a Cop... This isn't new. Pretending it is and then trying to invoke rules that have been hashed and re-hashed so many, many times in an attempt to censor what you don't want people to read... Real cute.
I agree with Citizen (I believe it's him), when he says that police understand verbal tactics when it comes to encounters and are very unlikely to be beat.
Yes, they do. We should, too. We should know how to avoid the traps as best we can. We should know how to make those games into a double-edged blade. It's no guarantee, but it sure saves me a lot of time...
Hell, a cop can arrest me and charge me with any damn thing he wants to dream up. No RAS/PC at all. Then the Public Pretender won't even help. I'll have to spend money to get it thrown out, assuming I have witnesses who can contradict all the statements in his false report... I've been down this road my friend. I know all too well how much power the Cops have, and how they abuse it. It isn't theory or fantasy.
Ixtow, you attempt "strategic fantasy police encounter conversation tactics" when in reality, we do this stuff everyday and have heard it all and know how to react.
This isn't about 'beating' anyone... nor is it a Fantasy. I use it and so do many others. And it works. You just don't like it.
It's about determination of detainment, not asking about it and never getting an answer. It works, it works damn well. Why ask a rapist if you are being raped? It's stupid. You already know it's true, do you expect a straight answer? Really? If you're dealing with the sort of Cop who is willing to illegally detain people, do you really think that Cop is going to tell the truth about anything? Or even answer?
You're right, Cops don't have to explain. But if there were respectable and civilized, they would. Wording the question in this way means that both parties know detainment has been established, and if it was not the Officer's intent to make a person feel as if they were not free to go, he has a chance to make it so! If he doesn't avail himself that chance, then illegal detainment it is! Please, please, please, find a way to disprove this repeatedly established fact. You're the one flying in the face of frequently cited and settled law. You're the one who needs the citation. Pretending that my example is something other than what it is and then arguing that made-up perversion of my words... Isn't that, yeah, I think it is. It's a Straw Man.
Your advice is to resist illegal detainments, attempt to flee, and that all of my experience, and the experience of many others, never happened. Way to go. [sarcasm] I am obviously very wrong... [/sarcasm] Whatever. You have, yet again, made it very clear why the Cops are the last place to get any kind of advice at all... I guess this is the part where it is important to remember that Cops are allowed to lie.
I think it's a matter of etiquette. Cops get used to people who just bend over and take it. This is a way of not only establishing that you aren't one of those people, but giving him a chance to back off and respect where the line is drawn. If he doesn't respect that, then detention is now unquestionable. And frankly, he deserves any action that can be taken against him.
I make no attempt to hide that my initial intent, when I first started using it, was to file any kind of complaint I could over the matter. My contempt for the general idea of LEOs cannot be structured in any mortal tongue. But I realized the raw truth hidden in it, and it is far more useful and civilized in content than my original intent. I have since adjusted myself accordingly. It'd be nice if Cops did that, too.
Honestly, 99% of LEOs are looking to bust criminals only and help out good guys. I'd like to make that 100%.
I'd say the percentage is waaayyy smaller than 99%, but I'd like it to be 100%, too.