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Thread: Police officer looking for respectful dialoge

  1. #251
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trap View Post
    @joeSparky


    Could you please direct me to the statute that makes that a crime? Or is it illegal because you think it is.



    Question EVERYTHING!!
    It could be interpreted as practicing medicine w/o a license.

    Nevertheless, please let's not pursue that on this thread - considerably OT.
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  2. #252
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    Hello,

    I am a officer here in Utah, I support the right to keep and bear arms. I am attempting to educate myself and those I work with and also make contacting those who open carry a good experience for all involved. That said I will make a few statements so you understand where I am coming from and then ask several questions and would appreciate your insight.

    Statements, These are my personal beliefs

    1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen.

    2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.

    3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.

    4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?


    Questions,

    1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.

    2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.

    3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.

    4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.

    Thanks for reading, thanks for replying.
    May I open that I live in a county where OC is an accepted way to travel. In over 40 yeras I have never once been asked for my CPL, and only had one conversation with a Sheriff's deputy....it consisted of two words: Him "hunting" Me "Ya". Palo is correct (at least in the county I live in, and it is as big as the state of Connecticut, but also in Skagit Co, where I used to live (70-05)) The just do not dispatch because someone is OCing. It is a perfectly legal activity, just like wearing BDUs or a hat is.

    Now, for your questions:

    #1: If you wanted to chit-chat about my various CZ's or Colts, or Olympic Compitition at the local coffee shop, while you are off duty...no, love to. If you wanted to talk to me in an official capicity, It would totally depend on the circumstances. Most likely not. I have a family friend that is in the WSP on the wet side, and in an official capicity I would prefer he leave me alone, (and he does leave me be, officially, even though we go out shooting together, and he even dated my sister for awhile years ago)

    #2: I conceal when it is cold enough to wear a coat, and then only because I have a coat on. Why? Training...back in the 50's I was told that "only those up to no-good conceal their weapons"...and comfort...It is much easier, and more comfortable, to carry my full sized Colts or my CZ 85 in an OWB holster which is what I do. I do have a shoulder holster, but I can't stand it.

    #3: Nobody bothers you in my county when you OC. No-one notices, too many people do it.

    #4: It has been my experience that OC is a great way to NOT be bothered by Bad Guys. I have been in only one situation in over 40 years (I became a US citizen and began OCing in July 1970) where my carry definately defused a very bad situation...a guy that was intent on beating me to a pulp,,,until he saw I was armed (my Colt never left the holster, just seeing I was armed and all of a sudden he had better things to do elsewhere, and left very quickly) I personally have never heard of a felon that was OCing. Felons do not want anyone to know they are armed, why would they display their carry? Now if you are talking about a guy displaying his weapon with the intent to intimidate, that is not open carry, that is an open display...much different.

    What should you teach your students? The odds (Probability 99.9999%) are that a person carrying a pistol in a holster and doing nothing with it except carrying...shopping, walking down the street, in the bank, driving his car, whatever normal activity he is doing...is not a threat to anyone, and would probably be the first one to come to your aid if you needed it. This includes people with a $100 pistol in a $20 holster, as well as the guy with the $3000 custom Dan Wessen, in the $125 Alessi leather holster. Because some people are more fortunate financially than others, does not make them better (or worse) than the less fortunate. The best thing when observing someone that is OC, is to just drive on by, wave if you wish, thumbs up...or just ignore is just fine,,,unless you need help,,,then ask for it. We'll do our best for you.

    Now I will ask you...Last winter my wife and I were driving down the hwy and caught a bunch of snow that almost ripped off the skid pan on our Audi A6. I was at the side of the road trying to resecure that side pan when the local WSP LT stopped to see if I could use some help (and very kindly offered some of those huge tye wraps to hold the pan up until we could get home and fix the problem perminantly) BTW: he never asked my name, asked for my CPL, only if he could help...

    I had on a $1500+ Colt in a $125 custom Alessi holster and was driving a $60k car...now does that make me better than the guy that has a $100 Chevy Vega, wife and 5 kids and a $200 CZ82 in a Czech duty holster? (also me, years ago)? I happen to tan very easily also, BTW/

    Edited to add: I am a retired business owner. everything we own is paid for, we have no consumer debt. Has our financial situation improve over the years? Yes, quite a bit. All 5 of our kids are out of school, married and on their own...with no student debt...yes, the Good Lord has belssed us abundantly/
    Last edited by hermannr; 03-19-2012 at 04:26 PM.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trap View Post
    @joeSparky


    Could you please direct me to the statute that makes that a crime? Or is it illegal because you think it is.



    Question EVERYTHING!!
    On every state of which I'm aware the practice of medicine and the prescribing of prescription medications is reserved to those appropriately licensed. For anyone not so licensed the act as described is a crime!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
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  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    On every state of which I'm aware the practice of medicine and the prescribing of prescription medications is reserved to those appropriately licensed. For anyone not so licensed the act as described is a crime!
    No one prescribed medication for anyone in the example.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    [In some states courts have ruled there is no 5A right to remain silent. This is sad.
    The nice thing is, if you remain silent anyway, there's nothing they can do about it. That's the beauty of silence, it gives them nothing. And, frankly, it's the advice of the ACLU even in places that pretend you don't have the right. The worst that can happen is you can be hit with some inane unconstitutional "law" because you were silent, but little else. If you talk, then you're gambling on being hit with a lot more, and the odds are stacked in favor of the house on that bet.

  6. #256
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    To the OP could we meet I would like to have a respectful dialogue with you?

    Thanks
    Zach

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  7. #257
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Might want to put that in a private message and not in public for everyone and their anti-gun brother to see....

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    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

  8. #258
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Why I have no need to hide behind a screen name never had any issue with harassment. Let the antis contact me.

    but thank you for pointing out the obvious but any time spent on Google well give me the same info about you.

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  9. #259
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Just so long as you know. I try not to make it easier for them anyhow, it usually takes them a few months to track down personal info on people with only a screen name to go off of.

    It helps that this is pretty much the only place I use this screen name, so they really don't have much to go on.

    Sent using tapatalk
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

  10. #260
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed following this thread and reading the perspectives and opinions of others. Citizens of many states have offered their thoughts and I enjoyed reading them. And, I thought now was as good a time as any to jump in with my $0.02 worth.

    I have had only one "official" contact with Utah Law Enforcement and that was at a high profile public event when apparently somebody had caught a glimpse of my concealed firearm. The contact was mutually respectful and the officer ended our "official" conversation and went on to talk guns in general. He ended by saying how much the police appreciate law abiding citizens who go armed for the purpose of lawful self-defense. He told me that in his personal opinion, crime rates would drop if more citizens felt the way I did. The "official" portion of the conversation consisted of him asking me if I was carrying a firearm. I replied that I was. The then asked me if I had a permit and I replied that I did. He did ask to see it and I complied and understood that a bit more vigilance might be needed at a high profile public event. (That was the ex-LEO in me.)

    I also commend the OP for attempting to be proactive and elicit meaningful, respectful, and informative dialog from the open carry community. While most of my carry is concealed, I do open carry from time to time. I have never experienced a negative event while open carrying; whether it be in Utah or in my former location, Wisconsin. (I am really glad now that WI has concealed carry as I go back to visit a couple of times per year.)

    Carry on my friends; proudly carry on.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  11. #261
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    I read a few pages of this thread, and I decided to respond to the OP instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    Hello,

    I am a officer here in Utah, I support the right to keep and bear arms. I am attempting to educate myself and those I work with and also make contacting those who open carry a good experience for all involved. That said I will make a few statements so you understand where I am coming from and then ask several questions and would appreciate your insight.
    I find it amusing that the majority of members that posted aggressively to you in the first few pages don't live in Utah. Hmmm. I have lived in a few states other than Utah, and I have to say that out of all of those, Utah has got to be the best place to meet a polite officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    Statements, These are my personal beliefs

    1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen
    You gotta do what you gotta do.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.
    Guns don't make me nervous. What makes me nervous is the cops that I have met that actually make cops as a whole look bad. It scares me that not only do they have a gun on their hip, but a badge that says they can take my life. Too often bad cops have been given the silk glove treatment when they abuse the rights of others, and even a few were given no more than a slap on the hand if they killed someone "accidentally". With that said, I also know of far more non-LEO "gunnies" (gun lovers) that scare me even more. Some are very respectable individuals. Some, however, act as if they are cops when they aren't. I have experienced some very hairy situations involving guns with non-LEOs far more than with LEOs. It's a matter of responsibility. Some people, no matter their employment role, just ain't got the common sense that God gives a snail. Most Law Enforcement Agencies are able to extract the idiots from their force before anything terrible happens. Sadly, they don't always get all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.
    I agree 10,000%. Something to add is I hope people don't carry just because they can. You can also speak your opinions freely, too. But that doesn't exactly mean you should. And in reality open carry more than just the Second Amendment, but also the First Amendment. What you carry, how you carry it and how you act while carrying it speak volumes.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?
    Man, that is the worst thing to say. "...I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife...." is NOT a good reason to be a cop. I have cops through out my family. And if you do that just for a paycheck, you're not going to last. It takes dedication and love to keep on doing it and doing it well. And if there is no law saying I must ID myself, don't count on my doing it. That is my right.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.
    If you're nice to me I'll be nice to you. If you're a dick to me, unless you suspect me (with RS) of a crime, I'm gonna walk away. Also, Hi Point is not a piece of crap. There is no handgun on the market that is as multifunctional as the Hi Point. No where else will you find a .45 acp that can break doors down with ease...club a burglar senseless (again with ease)...provide as a dandy of a boat anchor while fishing...and STILL provide as much inaccuracy in your shooting enough to scare the beegeebers out of your target enough they surrender without firing a shot. No other gun can beat that!

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.
    I see deterrence as the primary reason. But then, I have also learned to take heed to the teachings in the Holy Bible. Like the verse that says "a wise man that sees danger will avoid it. A fool will take it head on." So in essence, beware and be aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.
    I dunno. With steak & lobster? If you're nice to me I'll be nice to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.
    Realizing that you have a very hard job, I still urge you to read Matthew 7. And Matthew 25:40 is good, too.
    Take care and God bless you, bro!

  12. #262
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Thank you for taking the time to meet with me.

    The OP was just this a well informed LEO
    A well educated and knowledgeable officer. He made some very good points and some suggestions that were very useful.

    Thanks again for reaching out to the gun community and taking the time to educate other officers in your department.



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  13. #263
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    It's been a while since i've been to this forum, and I'm glad I found this thread. It has been interesting. To stargateranch, I appreciated your questions and comments and completely understand your concerns and duty. I have openly carried a few times but I primarily conceal carry. If I were open carrying I wouldn't mind at all for an officer to approach me. I would just appreciate the innocent until proven guilty attitude. Treat me with respect and we'd have a good converstion. If you asked for ID, I have no problem producing it. I completely understand where you're coming from and how life is nowadays. Anyway, I appreciate you reaching out like you have.
    Thanks,
    Nate

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    Thanks for comments natehunts!

    Also, Utah_Patriot, it was a pleasure to meet you. Good luck let me know if you need anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen.
    Personally I would rather have police interested and aware than have them blowing off stuff just because it doesn't sound like the next big bust. It's a fine line, and I will certainly say that the driving by with a smile and wave would be my preferred contact (nothing personal, but no one really wants to deal with cops if we don't have too ).

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.
    It's too easy to forget that police are people as well. They worry about being harmed or killed just like we all do. At the same time, they picked the profession, and choose to stay in it. If fear causes them to operate outside the acceptable bounds, then perhaps it's not the right profession. It's another fine line... (and in no way am I aiming that comment toward you specifically. I like that you pointed out that there were violations that allowed you to properly identify these examples you mentioned )

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.
    I try not to pass judgement on others motivations... To me it's either legal or not, we all do things for different reasons, and I don't think others are obligated to hold themselves up to my ethics or morality. I do expect people to obey the law, so that's the standard I tend to fall back on.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?
    This is probably where you and I would diverge the most (for the most part I agree with everything else you've said). I will concede that this might be a tactic criminals use, but that doesn't change the fact that it's also a right afforded to all (specifically, me ). My understanding is that I am required to identify myself, giving my name and address if asked by a LEO, and I have no problem doing so. However, if not operating a motor vehicle, I don't see any reason that I should give up any of my rights just because criminals decide to take advantage of those same rights. Part of the price we pay for living in a free society I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    Questions,

    1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.
    Not at all! This goes back to remembering that police are people too If approached properly, where I didn't feel I was being interrogated or anything, I might be flattered. We could discuss our hatred for inferior quality firearms. I carry a kimber pro carry II HD, and am in love with it!

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.
    Here I probably diverge from many of the sites members in that I usually CC (with a permit of course). I agree with you on the tactical advantage. If I'm in a place and someone walks in with a gun, intent to cause harm, I figure it's the guys with a gun on their hip who will be the first victims. I would rather have the chance to retreat to a tactical location, with a clear backdrop, some cover, and a stable position I can return fire from, without risking any innocent bystanders. When I do OC, I do it because I think the chances of needing it are slim, and I want to help educate others on their rights (perhaps doing an organized cleanup of the shooting areas out by Utah Lake). Also, in reference to others, there are some people who are authorized to posses their firearms, but for one reason or another are unable to get a CCP (those under 21 come to mind). Sometime OC might be the only choice, and being armed is better than not imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.
    This is a good question, one that I hadn't given much thought before. I guess to start off with, if you hand is on your gun butt, I might get nervous (as I'm sure you would be if my hand was on mine ). Beyond that it's all more subtle. If you came up demanding to see some ID or asking me what I was doing there I suspect I'd be more apt to go on the defensive, give my name and address, and be reluctant to answer other questions. At the same time, you would certainly have an agenda (verifying legality and collecting whatever information you thought was relevant), and you have gotta do your job to the best of your ability.

    There's a more fundamental issue here though, in my mind at least. If a police officer is approaching me in an official capacity (as opposed to just chit chatting because we both might have an interest in firearms), I have to assume they are looking for a crime or a criminal. Me knowing that I am not guilty of a crime is not enough to put me at ease in that situation. There are plenty of stories of mistaken identity, and police making honest mistakes. I can't know that the bank down the street wasn't just robbed and I'm being viewed as a suspect, or what. I have to assume that anything I say could be used against me, guilty or not, and not being a lawyer, I am unqualified to determine exactly what information I should offer up or not. So it is conceivable that there is really nothing you can do to put me at ease in such a situation. You might just have to accept that just like you take steps to protect yourself on the job, I will take steps to protect myself, and that's just the positions we find ourselves and each other in. The best you might be able to do is try to understand that I am not acting the way I am because I don't like you, or don't respect you, I simply am taking steps to legally protect myself, as is my right.

    I imagine this is exceedingly difficult. You assuredly encounter more criminals than I do police officers. I can't give you a more specific or simple answer, though I wish I could

    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.
    Thank you!

    Though we might not always act like it, we all live a better life because of the hard work you and your coworkers put in every day. You, or someone you work with, will likely lay your life down to help protect us, and there's nothing I could say that would show the proper gratitude.

    Also, I would like to thank you for caring enough to seek out our opinions! That right there tells me that you not only care about doing the best job you can, but you have a sincere interest in the people of your community. It is very much appreciated, and I hope you find my views helpful!

  16. #266
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    So I purposely responded to the OP without reading the responses. Didn't want to taint my responses or get off topic.

    However, since I took the time since to read all the posts and this seemed to keep coming up with stated disbelief:

    I regularly listen to a police scanner, mostly SLCPD, but occasionally UPD. When a call goes out from dispatch they always follow one of two formats. In both cases, the first part of the call is a description and address, occasionally preceded by an alternating audio tone to indicate it is a more serious call. Next the dispatcher either calls out a primary callsign and a backup (indicating which officers are being dispatched), or ask if anyone is in the area, in which case an officer will respond with their callsign, and another officer will offer to back[up]. It is quite obvious that these are not offers, but orders. Sometime later you will hear the same callsigns announced by the officers, and they will report something like 'nocase', 'citation', '1 in custody, on the way to jail' with a starting mileage, or other relevant resolution. This happens on EVER dispatch. There is no choice, no option to say 'sounds like a boner, not going to bother', they are being dispatched to a location, and it is quite evident that they are required to go to that location. It's obvious that once they get there they have broad latitude to evaluate the situation and take any number of courses of action.

    Again, there is no question in my mind, if you even spend a little time listening in, that these dispatches are not optional, they are being ordered to a location. If you want to continue to disbelieve, that's your choice, but if you want to actually see for yourself, head on over to http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?ctid=2794 and witness it for yourself...
    Last edited by gobbly; 05-28-2012 at 04:07 AM. Reason: fix typo

  17. #267
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    Thanks Gobbly

    Thank you for the responses, I have read every response here and learned a great deal and that is why I am here reading, lurking as it may be. Be safe folks!

  18. #268
    Founder's Club Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    This is a long thread and I just came accross it and have not had time to read it all. Has anyone suggested how important it is for dispatchers to be properly trained? Let's look at a scenerio:

    911... what is the nature of your call?
    Caller... Im at Wal-Mart and there is a guy with a gun.

    911...Does he have it in his hand, is he threatening anyone?
    Caller...No.

    911...What is he doing?
    Caller... It looks like he is pushing a cart through the automotive section, yes he's getting wiper blades.

    911...It is perfectly legal to be armed in this state and as long as he is not doing anything suspisious there is nothing we can do.
    Caller...You mean he can just run around with a gun on his hip?
    911...Yes. Open carry is legal and many people do it to provide for their own protection.

    And so ends the call and further police resources are not wasted.

    TBG
    Henderson NV
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 06-06-2012 at 09:51 PM.
    Article 1, Section 11, #1 of the Nevada Constitution: Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use ..

    Life member GOA and NRA. Member SAF, NAGR, & former member NVFAC.

  19. #269
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Cops do not encounter many 'criminals', but more like a bunch of nitwits who can't recall what the posted speed limit is at any given moment during their drive or remember that for safety reasons all of the lights on their car need to work.

    Cops typically meet folks who forgot to update their tags, mail the check to the insurance company, or burned a doob/downed a cool frosty friendly or two or three after work, just to unwind, before they head home to The Wife and the curtain climbers.....criminals, hardly.....nitwits, you bet.

    Now when cops meet 'criminals' they typically have a near 100% success rate when attempting to arrest 'criminals'.

    Cops do have a tough job; keeping safe, from themselves, the nitwits of this great nation.....the patients of Job I do not have where nitwits are concerned. Cops are not so much law enforcers but that aunt or uncle that smacks you in the back of the head when you start cutting up in church.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

  20. #270
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    This is a long thread and I just came accross it and have not had time to read it all. Has anyone suggested how important it is for dispatchers to be properly trained? Let's look at a scenerio:

    911... what is the nature of your call?
    Caller... Im at Wal-Mart and there is a guy with a gun.

    911...Does he have it in his hand, is he threatening anyone?
    Caller...No.

    911...What is he doing?
    Caller... It looks like he is pushing a cart through the automotive section, yes he's getting wiper blades.

    911...It is perfectly legal to be armed in this state and as long as he is not doing anything suspisious there is nothing we can do.
    Caller...You mean he can just run around with a gun on his hip?
    911...Yes. Open carry is legal and many people do it to provide for their own protection.

    And so ends the call and further police resources are not wasted.

    TBG
    Henderson NV
    Or this:

    Caller: there is a man with a gun in a holster.
    911: (questions what the man is doing)
    Caller: He's shopping in the ladies underwear section.
    911: What he is doing is legal. Ill send an officer to write you a citation for misuse of the 911 system.

    See....ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Its also no excuse to use ignorance of one law to break another. If I were to walk south on a sidewalk on a Sunday, when the town law states you can only walk north, and an officer stops me and writes me a ticket, I am guilty. Regardless of the fact that I was unaware of the law.

  21. #271
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    --snip-- If I were to walk south on a sidewalk on a Sunday, when the town law states you can only walk north, and an officer stops me and writes me a ticket, I am guilty. Regardless of the fact that I was unaware of the law.
    Unfortunately I have seen such laws enforced occasionally - we are better off w/o them.

    When officer writes you a ticket, you are charged and still presumed innocent - at least that is the way it is supposed to work.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  22. #272
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.
    I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.
    Last edited by Medic1210; 06-07-2012 at 07:57 PM.

  23. #273
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.
    Does give one pause, does it not? More so than usual too.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.
    Personally, I wouldn't have commented on that specifically because I try to respect other people's feelings. Irrational in my mind or not, I think it's important that we don't try to invalidate them. After all, we're all entitled to our own opinions, we all have our unique experiences that shape how we think, and I've never felt comfortable passing judgement on that.

    Actions are a completely different thing. It's ok in my mind for someone to feel nervous around me, for whatever reason they might have. However, I still expect them to treat me with respect and obey the law, just as I would treat them and behave myself, despite me possibly not agreeing with what they believe. If you read my response to the OP on that particular section of their post you'll notice that I am focused on how I expect a police officer to act, not what I expect to be going on in their heads.

    I personally think our culture spends too much time focused on trying to get others to agree with us, or control what people think. I believe that having different opinions and beliefs is what makes life interesting
    Last edited by gobbly; 06-10-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  25. #275
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.
    Not to mention his claim that people in his neck of the woods regularly roll down the highways and biways waving their guns around in fits of road rage. Right....
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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