Police officer looking for respectful dialoge

[Tucker6900]

This may have already been touched upon. The recent excessive tactical measures employed by the Aurora, Colorado PD in apprehending that Wells Fargo Bank robbery suspect vividly illustrates the necessity for some serious re-calibration of law enforcement agency attitudes in dealing with LAW-ABIDING members of our society.

Will the next evolution of this approach to apprehending criminals involve summoning all citizens for an appointment in the "interview room" who may fit the description of a suspect ? Does any line of demarcation exist beyond which "officer safety" may does not "trump" the LAW ?

I acknowledge that being a patrol LEO is perhaps the most difficult job in the world to perform "perfectly" to everyone's satisfaction - but THE LAW sets reasonable boundaries upon tactical measures that are available.
I have no tolerance for a LEO asserting "officer safety" while aiming a gun at the head of an unarmed citizen- or for that matter a law-abiding citizen wearing a holstered sidearm. There are lots of behavioral patterns that people may not personally approve of that are nevertheless LAWFUL. Again - it is time to RE-CALIBRATE.

I think that comes from the ever so rapidly militarization of the police.

We just want to be left alone. And if the OP or any other officer reads this, we understand you have a job to do. But your job description does not include violation of rights. If you get the call, why not try this. Observe and report. You will have less problems if you leave us alone rather than assume that we are trouble and confront us.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Hello,

I am a officer here in Utah, I support the right to keep and bear arms. ....

I think you need to edit your post here ... you clearly do not support the right to keep and bear arms .... did you forget a "do not" in this sentence?

And in Utah .. tsk tsk tsk .. Utah's changing for the worse

 

[Logan 5]

I think you need to edit your post here ... you clearly do not support the right to keep and bear arms .... did you forget a "do not" in this sentence?

And in Utah .. tsk tsk tsk .. Utah's changing for the worse

Can you explain your attack on him?

 

[Citizen]

I think that comes from the ever so rapidly militarization of the police.

And, the attitudes that underly it. Below is a chilling thought from a SWATkop. Go to the linked blog and see some wonderful attitudes about others. Take notice of how he characterizes some Americans.

" A SWAT team is like a military unit. You can moan all you want about the militarization of the police and all of that but your tears will not change a thing. Get used to that theme, BTW. When I was on SWAT our view is that 'We will always win....even if we have to burn down your entire house by bombing it....we will win'. Period."

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/06/defending-against-swat-entries-not-what-you-think-it-is.html


I found out about it here: http://www.theagitator.com/

The agitator blogger is Radley Balko who has spent years studying police and prosecutorial abuses. He has a great piece out just yesterday about how the so-called war on police is a myth, and how this year for police, if this year's trend continues, will be the safest since WWII when there were a lot fewer cops.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/police-fatality-statistics-2012_b_1619725.html

 

[Steinmetzify]

My take, from a new OC-er

Interesting thread; I greatly enjoyed reading it.


Questions,

1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.

Yes, I mind......like many people, I lead a very busy life. Between work and family, I barely have time to accomplish everything I want to, when I'm out. And even then, I'm working......cellphone calls, emails, text messages. Please don't bother me. At all.

2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.

For purely personal reasons at this time, I don't have a CPL......mostly because my business took off around this time last year and I couldn't get the time away. Mostly though, comfort. I bought a Crossbreed SuperTuck last year when the CLP was on the schedule, and while not unbearable, the Blackhawk CQC kills it for comfort. As far as speed, given equal reaction times, practice, etc...there is no way on Earth you're getting a concealed weapon out before I get my OC into action. I'll absolutely prove it to you, should we ever decide to meet up and test it.

3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.

I just don't. I don't want to be made to feel that the perfectly legal act I'm performing needs to be regulated by police. You're a civil servant sir, not my overseer. Don't make me feel like that; you won't like the outcome. For me, the VERY BEST THING you can do, is make sure I never even know you're there. Observe from a distance and once you see that I'm the same guy doing the same things I'd be doing without a gun on, leave.

4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.

That there are absolutely people in this state, city, Starbucks etc that WILL NOT under any circumstances stand to have their civil rights violated. If you try, be prepared for what comes next. KNOW the law, and practice it; because we do, and will.

ALL of that aside, man......thanks for the reach out. If you see me in line at a coffee shop (as long as I'm just standing there not working, of course) and you're off duty, go ahead and say something as long as it's positive. If you can be accepting of my rights, that'll go a long way towards me being civil back.

 

[Grapeshot]

^........^.......^........^.........^
Very well thought out answer - thank you.

 

[WalkingWolf]

"Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to."

Yes you can, the SCOTUS has said so...

 

[stargateranch]

I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.

I have had a sit down face to face with couple people from this board, and a ride along with another. I am sorry but I am not here to"prove" any stance just to state my feelings and provide some insight into how I came into those feelings.

As far as proof here is the news story from one of the arrests I made. Yes its older. The other never made the news but perhaps I can place a redacted version of the report (I will have to check policy). I checked, and I cannot release it due to policy, you can GRAMA request it if you so please, Utah Highway Patrol case # 10SL04343.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4767078

 

[WalkingWolf]

I have had a sit down face to face with couple people from this board, and a ride along with another. I am sorry but I am not here to"prove" any stance just to state my feelings and provide some insight into how I came into those feelings.

As far as proof here is the news story from one of the arrests I made. Yes its older. The other never made the news but perhaps I can place a redacted version of the report (I will have to check policy).

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4767078

Did the arrested subject have any police identification such as badge or police patch? I mean anything other than tie wraps, or utilities, and combat boots? What are the Utah laws on red and yellow lights on a vehicle, statute please? Did he say he was a cop? Is this ALL you had? This is why I tell people to in no way dress in clothing that cops stereotypically wear, because some numpty will arrest them for it.

I can see him as a cop wannebe, but from the news report nothing to indicate impersonating an officer! Totally wrong! Totally idiotic, and some cops wonder why they are hated. I don't think you won any points with that post or arrest. I wouldn't be surprised if there is not a lawsuit to follow this, I hope the arrested did not get roughed up for the departments sake.

Amazing simply amazing!

 

[gobbly]

"Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to."

Yes you can, the SCOTUS has said so...

scotus said they aren't liable for damages, not that they have the right to refuse to follow their employers policy in that regard. You have the right to make derogatory statements about your bosses family to his face, walk out and skip work for a week, but that doesn't mean you have a right to your job when you return.

 

[WalkingWolf]

scotus said they aren't liable for damages, not that they have the right to refuse to follow their employers policy in that regard. You have the right to make derogatory statements about your bosses family to his face, walk out and skip work for a week, but that doesn't mean you have a right to your job when you return.

Depending on the dept. when it come to nuisance calls the decision usually falls on the officer. Police officers are usually above dispatchers on the food chain. Let me put it this way they are not required by law to respond to anything, if they are not liable they only have to answer to the boss. And if the boss has any common sense he will back up a officer who gets basically "man not breaking the law call". IMHO the OP though he claimed he was looking for respectful dialog was not, and in fact his disdain for LAC with guns is becoming clear. There is no right to a job, unless there is a contract, in any line of work. He has a choice, maybe it would cost him his job, maybe not, but he has a choice.

 

[Medic1210]

I have had a sit down face to face with couple people from this board, and a ride along with another. I am sorry but I am not here to"prove" any stance just to state my feelings and provide some insight into how I came into those feelings.

As far as proof here is the news story from one of the arrests I made. Yes its older. The other never made the news but perhaps I can place a redacted version of the report (I will have to check policy). I checked, and I cannot release it due to policy, you can GRAMA request it if you so please, Utah Highway Patrol case # 10SL04343.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4767078

Didn't see any mention of that supposed cop impersonator open carrying a firearm. Did I miss something?

 

[WalkingWolf]

Didn't see any mention of that supposed cop impersonator open carrying a firearm. Did I miss something?

We all missed something~~the respectful dialog.

 

[OC for ME]

I have had a sit down face to face with couple people from this board, and a ride along with another. I am sorry but I am not here to"prove" any stance just to state my feelings and provide some insight into how I came into those feelings.

As far as proof here is the news story from one of the arrests I made. Yes its older. The other never made the news but perhaps I can place a redacted version of the report (I will have to check policy). I checked, and I cannot release it due to policy, you can GRAMA request it if you so please, Utah Highway Patrol case # 10SL04343.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4767078

Policy is not the law, can you legally release the information under the law without a citizen filing as GRAMA request?

Thanks for being up front about your feelings, I appreciate your honesty. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[stargateranch]

Did the arrested subject have any police identification such as badge or police patch? I mean anything other than tie wraps, or utilities, and combat boots? What are the Utah laws on red and yellow lights on a vehicle, statute please? Did he say he was a cop? Is this ALL you had? This is why I tell people to in no way dress in clothing that cops stereotypically wear, because some numpty will arrest them for it.

I can see him as a cop wannebe, but from the news report nothing to indicate impersonating an officer! Totally wrong! Totally idiotic, and some cops wonder why they are hated. I don't think you won any points with that post or arrest. I wouldn't be surprised if there is not a lawsuit to follow this, I hope the arrested did not get roughed up for the departments sake.

Amazing simply amazing!

There's more to it than that I was just posting news story for proof that it occured. He was basically listening to the scanner and responding to police calls for service. Yes flashing red lights to the front of the vehicle are illegal in utah.

Edit: I find it offensive that you would imply I would rough somebody up.

 

[stargateranch]

Policy is not the law, can you legally release the information under the law without a citizen filing as GRAMA request?

Thanks for being up front about your feelings, I appreciate your honesty. Good luck and stay safe.

This is true no legal ramifications to me releasing it but there could be other civil penalities. I could just plain ol get in trouble at work or be fired if it was bad enough.

 

[stargateranch]

We all missed something~~the respectful dialog.

I hope i have been respectful if I have not it was not my intent.

 

[stargateranch]

See that is an opinion. You aren't an opinion officer you are a LEO. It could be that a person wants to make a political statement (1st Amendment) by carrying their gun openly. You don't get to make that decision for them.

Agree, but i would never take action as an LEO based on opinion. Just stating an opinion does not mean i am violating peoples rights based on that.

 

[stargateranch]

Depending on the dept. when it come to nuisance calls the decision usually falls on the officer. Police officers are usually above dispatchers on the food chain. Let me put it this way they are not required by law to respond to anything, if they are not liable they only have to answer to the boss. And if the boss has any common sense he will back up a officer who gets basically "man not breaking the law call". IMHO the OP though he claimed he was looking for respectful dialog was not, and in fact his disdain for LAC with guns is becoming clear. There is no right to a job, unless there is a contract, in any line of work. He has a choice, maybe it would cost him his job, maybe not, but he has a choice.

I am sorry walking wolf if I offended it was not my intention. No disdain for anyone who excercises any of their rights. I take them all quite seriously and respect them. I have learned quite a few things from this post and apprciate all the feed back.

 

[Maine Expat]

Well, I haven't read any posts after your OP stargate so I'm totally out on the proverbial limb here. Actually I voice this opinion once or twice recently. Now I was an MP in the Army during the 70s in the wild West Germany days so I've walked on your side of the badge. We were mostly just a bunch of kids the Army decided to hand a badge and a .45 to and told not to shoot anyone. We really didn't go looking for trouble for the most part.

I honestly don't get why people jump straight to confrontation when approached by LEOs. The majority of "encounter" youtubes I've seen have begun with a less than robust initial inquiry from the LEO who generally gets blasted with the "I don't have to give you my ID" song and dance. yes there are some nasty LEOs out there who are little more than bullies with badges, but the overall majority of our Brothers in Blue are good cops doing a tough job the best they so they can go home in less than two pieces.

As far as I'm concerned, even a semi friendly inquiry is likely going to be met with a smile and see my hand stuck out in greeting and lets go from there. You need ID, I don't have an issue with that since I'm squeaky clean, except for that "unfortunate incident" nobody talks about at family BBQs when I'm around, but I digress. Us law abiding citizens should have nothing to hide really and I'd much rather foster a working relationship with the local PD so the GOOD word gets spread around quicker. And an invite to the PD's indoor range in Winter would be a nice perk too.

I had someone respond to my "just give your ID" idea with a concern that our name could end up on a report somewhere that we'd been detained, etc. for the dreaded catch all, "gun possession", which would definitely put the kibosh to a CC permit/renewal. That was about the only credible argument that I could see backing.

That's my 0.02 kopeks

PS Ya catch more flies with honey. That's just a plain fact and I usually have a jar with me.