I just found this thread for the first time, and it has been an interesting read. I won't beat a dead horse on things that have been covered already. I'll respond to your initial statements, and then answer your questions, and offer a few thoughts of my own.
Hello,
Statements, These are my personal beliefs
1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen..
I understand your contractual obligation to carry out the orders of your supervisors. Observe, report, no contact. You have fulfilled your obligations, and respected my rights.
2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you..
"Nervous" probably isn't the best choice of wording here, but I get what you are saying. You are "always conscious of the risks inherent to your chosen career field".
3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason..
I think this has been sufficiently addressed, that people exercising rights for rights sake are not stupid. They are heroes, for taking on the added burden of helping you protect your rights, even if you choose not to. Ok, heroes is a bit overstating it, I don't like to throw that word around, but I think you'll get my meaning. Thesaurus failure.
4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?.
Again, this has been well covered. No RAS, no contact. That preempts the need to ask me for ID.
Questions,
1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too..
I would prefer not to be contacted. I guess the exception would be if you would like to contact me just to tell me that you got a call, were here responding to it, and seeing nothing wrong, you are now going to have a word with the original caller. Many people on this forum wouldn't even welcome that much contact, but for that single situation, I like knowing that my 1st amendment statement about my 2nd amendment rights is getting the word out. If you feel like throwing in a personal "thanks for carrying", I'll accept that too.
2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason..
Beat to death already, but yes, deterrence. A close second is the 1st amendment statement, and the opportunity to educate my fellow man, and bring them over to the dark side. I carry the NV Tri-fold that has all of the relevant OC and CC laws, and I give out 2-3 a day. I love that.
3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child..
Much of what others said applies here for me. If you don't have RAS, DON'T APPROACH ME. Unless it is to offer to buy me lunch.
4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends..
There have been some very well thought out comments by others in this thread already. I would confirm what they have said.
DON'T use bullying tactics.
DON'T lie, even though you legally can. The lies that officers use in the course of a contact are a LARGE part of why there is such a disconnect between LEO and Civvies. You want us to trust you with our safety? Build trust. My kids can tell you that trust is built through honesty, and NOT using lies as a daily tactic to accomplish your objectives. I can't stress how important this is.
DON'T demand more from me than you are entitled to. In other words, don't ask to search my vehicle, unless you have RAS.
DO assume that I am the head attorney from your local chapter of the ACLU, that everything you say and do in my presence is being recorded, and that one misstep will cost you and your bosses jobs, dollars, and whatever other penalties are allowed by law. No, I am not this person, but if you treat every single person you stop as if they are, you will be off to an excellent start.
And most importantly, take what you have learned here in this forum, and share it with your fellow officers. Especially the trainees. Start them off right to be true protectors of the constitution. One man really can make a difference. The right attitude on the part of just one cop can be contageous in a department. The fact that you came here to learn, and even dealt with getting trolled, speaks to your character. I truly appreciate it. Stick around, participate, and get to know some folks. It only take a handful of us to bridge the gap between LEO and Civvies. Having the trust of the people will help you more in your job than any bullying tactic, or slight-of-mouth tricks.
DON'T participate in fishing expeditions.
Thanks for reading, thanks for replying.
Thanks for your efforts to expand your understanding of an oft-misunderstood topic. I hope what you have gleaned from this exercise will help facilitate your safe return to your family each and every day. And I hope that, when you get home and take the uniform off, you will be one of us. OC with us, you'll be welcome.
