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Thread: How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school?

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school?

    How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on judicial discretion? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on police forbearance?

    Would law enforcement be righteous in lawful authority in stopping every driver and requesting their Wisconsin Concealed Carry License and photo ID IAW 175.60?

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc

    948.605  Gun-free school zones.
    (1)  Definitions. In this section:
    (a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    (ac) "Firearm" does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
    (am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    (b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased; or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    3m. A person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-28-2012 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    With a permit to carry.

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on judicial discretion? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on police forbearance?

    1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    No. A driver passing on the street is not "in or on the grounds."
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-28-2012 at 09:50 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Both hands on the wheel, 10:00 and 2:00, remember to watch for children.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Both hands on the wheel, 10:00 and 2:00, remember to watch for children.
    That is not sufficient to be legal with a gun.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    That is not sufficient to be legal with a gun.
    How does one get in or on the grounds of the school?

    Teleport? Base jump? Throw the firearm really really high in the air, run as fast as possible, then catch the gun in a flying jump when the school grounds are reached?

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    If you have a permit you can drive by the school fine. The public road is not in or on school grounds. Now if you go into the parking lot, that's a problem.

    If you don't have a permit, then you can't drive by a school unless your gun is unloaded and encased.

    It's pretty cut and dry?

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    In general, a gun may not come within 1000 feet. There are exceptions. One is for a CCLicensee's gun in or on school grounds. Another is for a gun on private property. There is not an exception for a gun on the public highway.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Sometimes the "Exact words Greg (Brady)!" Legal analysis is superseded by the spirit of the Law.

    Again, does the law expect a license holder to burrow 1000 ft into the earth and then across and then up to adhere to a poorly written statute?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  10. #10
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Again, does the law expect a license holder to burrow 1000 ft into the earth and then across and then up to adhere to a poorly written statute?
    I'm going to start designing an auger attachment rail system!

  11. #11
    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on judicial discretion? How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school without depending on police forbearance?

    Would law enforcement be righteous in lawful authority in stopping every driver and requesting their Wisconsin Concealed Carry License and photo ID IAW 175.60?

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc

    948.605  Gun-free school zones.
    (1)  Definitions. In this section:
    (a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    (ac) "Firearm" does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
    (am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    (b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased; or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    3m. A person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    If you read 18 usc 922 (q) (2) (ii) It states that (2) (a) doesn't apply to people with a license issued by the state in which the school zone is located and has obtained a license. I do see (ii) isn't listed in 1M and am guessing that is what you are questioning.

    Can someone tell me how to copy and paste the text from a PDF!! I don't have that option and it's frustrating to have to hand type this stuff.

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    I am not questioning anything.

    18 USC 922 (q)(2) prohibits, in general, gun carry within 1000 feet with some exceptions that do not include the public highway. Gun carry by a state licensed person may be legal and excepted. In Wisconsin the exception is for "on or in the grounds of a school."

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    In general, a gun may not come within 1000 feet. There are exceptions. One is for a CCLicensee's gun in or on school grounds. Another is for a gun on private property. There is not an exception for a gun on the public highway.
    First, ANYONE can have a firearm in or on school grounds so long as the firearm is unloaded and encased or in a locked firearms rack. Wis. Stat. 948.605 2b and 3a and 3b.

    A CCW license holder can have a loaded and unencased firearm within 1000' of school grounds (including a public highway). Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r.

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    A CCW license holder can have a loaded and unencased firearm within 1000' of school grounds (including a public highway). Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, ..."

  15. #15
    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    I am not questioning anything.

    18 USC 922 (q)(2) prohibits, in general, gun carry within 1000 feet with some exceptions that do not include the public highway. Gun carry by a state licensed person may be legal and excepted. In Wisconsin the exception is for "on or in the grounds of a school."

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
    18 USC 922 (q) (2) (ii) States if you have a license from the state 18 USC 922 (q) (A) does not apply. I don't understand what "public Highway" has to do with anything? If your within a 1000' school zone in Wisconsin and you have a Wisconsin CCL, 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (ii) gives you exemption within that 1000' school zone...public highway, sidewalk, city street, I don't see the difference.
    Last edited by markush; 03-28-2012 at 02:31 PM.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Would law enforcement be righteous in lawful authority in stopping every driver and requesting their Wisconsin Concealed Carry License and photo ID IAW 175.60?
    What, pray tell, would be the RAS for the stop? Driving near a school is not a crime.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
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    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
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  17. #17
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    What, pray tell, would be the RAS for the stop? Driving near a school is not a crime.
    Neither is a traffic stop absent RAS a crime.

    Wisconsin § 345.22 Authority to arrest without a warrant requires only "reasonable grounds." Subsequent § 345.23 Officer's action after arrest without a warrant authorizes little of what stereotypically occurs, as reported here on OCDO.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-28-2012 at 04:03 PM.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I'm going to start designing an auger attachment rail system!
    When I am bored I masturbate with a cheese grater. Slightly amusing but mostly painful.

    Like this thread.

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  19. #19
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    I am not questioning anything.

    18 USC 922 (q)(2) prohibits, in general, gun carry within 1000 feet with some exceptions that do not include the public highway. Gun carry by a state licensed person may be legal and excepted. In Wisconsin the exception is for "on or in the grounds of a school."...
    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Again, does the law expect a license holder to burrow 1000 ft into the earth and then across and then up to adhere to a poorly written statute?
    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    A CCW license holder can have a loaded and unencased firearm within 1000' of school grounds (including a public highway). *Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    The statute is poorly written but if you read it slowly and pause, it makes sense.
    A licensee or an out-of-state licensee may carry a loaded and/or not cased firearm in a GFSZ except for in or on the grounds of the school unless you qualify for one of the general exceptions.
    Firearm is not defined to only include "handgun" in 948.605
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 03-28-2012 at 07:06 PM.

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    Are you really that thick, Doug? It's much clearer than most statutes.

    Paragraph (a) does not apply to a licensee or out of state licensee, except if said L/OOSL is on school grounds. Then it applies.
    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Both hands on the wheel, 10:00 and 2:00, remember to watch for children.
    Not good advice in a car with an explosive in the steering wheel (airbag).

    3/9 or 4/8 are much safer. At 10/2 you're more likely to be maimed.
    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  22. #22
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    Not good advice in a car with an explosive in the steering wheel (airbag).

    3/9 or 4/8 are much safer. At 10/2 you're more likely to be maimed.
    You would likely have time to let go of the wheel before impact. If you wish to avoid a crash to begin with, keep them at 10/2...

  23. #23
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    What is interesting is the federal law makes no mention of a 1000 foot perimeter. In it's language a school zone is school property and/or premisis. The 1000 foot perimeter is unique to Wisconsin. In fact (ii) as listed below would imply that a person with a State issued CCL with a background check would be an exception to (2)(A) and carry on school property would be lawful. However (ii) and (iii) are excluded from Wisconsin statute 948.605. It appears that the Wisconsin legislature, in it's infinite wisdom, elected to include the 1000 foot perimeter within the definition of school zone and to remove the state issued license exception. Therefore screw up the federal intent.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18USC 922(g)(2)(B)
    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual
    knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved
    in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign
    commerce at a place that the individual knows,
    or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
    zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the
    possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school
    grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is
    licensed to do so by the State in which the
    school zone is located or a political subdivision
    of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an
    individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement
    authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms
    rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved
    by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a
    contract entered into between a school in the
    school zone and the individual or an employer
    of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in
    his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an
    individual while traversing school premises for
    the purpose of gaining access to public or private
    lands open to hunting, if the entry on
    school premises is authorized by school authorities.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1r as currently written in s.948.605 is vague and misleading. It reads:

    1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Did the legislature intend to say that if you are on the grounds of a school you are subject to a felony whether or not you have a license? Or was the legislative intent to word 1r thusly?

    1r. Except if the person in or on the grounds of a school is, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)(d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1)(g).

    Only the courts can answer those questions, but the wording I suggest would seem to be more in concert with the intent of ACT 35 and USC 922.

    The reason I question the wrording of 1r is because this is how 948.605 section 2 was worded before ACT 35.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    948.605(2)(a)

    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.

    948.605(2)(b)

    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:

    948.605(2)(b)1.

    1. On private property not part of school grounds;

    948.605(2)(b)2.

    2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that, before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    948.605(2)(b)3.

    3. That is not loaded and is:

    948.605(2)(b)3.a.

    a. Encased; or

    948.605(2)(b)3.b.

    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    948.605(2)(b)4.

    4. By an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    948.605(2)(b)5.

    5. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    948.605(2)(b)6.

    6. By a law enforcement officer or state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity; or

    948.605(2)(b)7.

    7. That is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school grounds for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school grounds is authorized by school authorities.

    948.605(2)(b)8.

    8. By a person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    948.605(2)(b) 1, 2, 4,5,7. were removed by Act 35 and replaced with 1m and 1r. Note that 948.605(2)(b)2 is identical to paragraph ii in 18USC 922 which implies that a person licensed by the state is exempted from the school zone restriction. Paragraph ii in 18USC 922 was also made not applicable under the writings of Act 35.

    The new 948.605 confuses me. Taken literally it says to me that if a person has a CCL, carry of a loaded handgun is lawful in the 1000 foot perimeter, but the carry of a firearm on school property is prohibited, license or not. I find it hard to believe that was the intent of the authors of ACT 35. It seems inconsistant with the author's claim that Act 35 is just a stop gap to constitutional carry. It also seems irrational to me that ACT 35 removed 948.605 (2)(b) (4) from 948.605 which now means that teaching firearm saftey courses on school property is a felony if firearms are involved in the training.

    Something is all screwed up.

    My opinions and not legal advice.

  24. #24
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, Captain, you are mistaken. 18 USC 921:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921



    Also, out of state permits do NOT exempt you from the Federal Gun Free School Zone prohibition. The permit must be issued by the same state the school zone in question is located in to provide an exemption under Federal law.
    Uh, well if I remember correctly it says "licensed" not "issued" by the same state. Wisconsin considers recognized out-of-state licensees to be licensed by Wisconsin. Don't confuse the physical card with the permission: "License" is not only a noun, but a verb. Wisconsin "licensed" out-of-state licensees. Another example: "007 had a "license to kill" does not refer to some card he carried in his pocket. It referred to a permission that was granted to him.
    A. Gold

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    Regular Member GuidoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markush View Post
    ... Can someone tell me how to copy and paste the text from a PDF!! I don't have that option and it's frustrating to have to hand type this stuff.
    Not going to get involved in the rest of this discussion (not educated enough on WI law), but I dislike seeing a computer question go unanswered.

    The PDF must be created in a way that allows text to be highlighted. If it's just a picture scan (as in, JPG without OCR, like many home and small office scanners are), then you won't be able to copy/paste text, let alone highlight, at all. You'll just end up drawing a box around things. If you have a full version of Adobe Acrobat, you can OCR it yourself (aka Optical Character Recognition). Same goes if you have other OCR programs, or wish to try out the many online options, much of which are free.

    If the PDF has been made correctly, yet you still can't, make sure you are running the latest version of your chosen reader (Adobe, Foxit, etc) and on the correct selection tool (not the "hand" or something else, but the one that looks like a cursor). Best of luck!

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