How does an armed citizen legally drive near a school?

[Teej]

Both hands on the wheel, 10:00 and 2:00, remember to watch for children.

Not good advice in a car with an explosive in the steering wheel (airbag).

3/9 or 4/8 are much safer. At 10/2 you're more likely to be maimed.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

Not good advice in a car with an explosive in the steering wheel (airbag).

3/9 or 4/8 are much safer. At 10/2 you're more likely to be maimed.

You would likely have time to let go of the wheel before impact. If you wish to avoid a crash to begin with, keep them at 10/2...

 

[Captain Nemo]

What is interesting is the federal law makes no mention of a 1000 foot perimeter. In it's language a school zone is school property and/or premisis. The 1000 foot perimeter is unique to Wisconsin. In fact (ii) as listed below would imply that a person with a State issued CCL with a background check would be an exception to (2)(A) and carry on school property would be lawful. However (ii) and (iii) are excluded from Wisconsin statute 948.605. It appears that the Wisconsin legislature, in it's infinite wisdom, elected to include the 1000 foot perimeter within the definition of school zone and to remove the state issued license exception. Therefore screw up the federal intent.
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18USC 922(g)(2)(B)
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual
knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved
in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign
commerce at a place that the individual knows,
or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the
possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school
grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is
licensed to do so by the State in which the
school zone is located or a political subdivision
of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the State or political
subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms
rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved
by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a
contract entered into between a school in the
school zone and the individual or an employer
of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in
his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an
individual while traversing school premises for
the purpose of gaining access to public or private
lands open to hunting, if the entry on
school premises is authorized by school authorities.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1r as currently written in s.948.605 is vague and misleading. It reads:

1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did the legislature intend to say that if you are on the grounds of a school you are subject to a felony whether or not you have a license? Or was the legislative intent to word 1r thusly?

1r. Except if the person in or on the grounds of a school is, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)(d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1)(g).

Only the courts can answer those questions, but the wording I suggest would seem to be more in concert with the intent of ACT 35 and USC 922.

The reason I question the wrording of 1r is because this is how 948.605 section 2 was worded before ACT 35.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
948.605(2)(a)

(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.

948.605(2)(b)

(b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:

948.605(2)(b)1.

1. On private property not part of school grounds;

948.605(2)(b)2.

2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that, before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

948.605(2)(b)3.

3. That is not loaded and is:

948.605(2)(b)3.a.

a. Encased; or

948.605(2)(b)3.b.

b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

948.605(2)(b)4.

4. By an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

948.605(2)(b)5.

5. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

948.605(2)(b)6.

6. By a law enforcement officer or state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity; or

948.605(2)(b)7.

7. That is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school grounds for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school grounds is authorized by school authorities.

948.605(2)(b)8.

8. By a person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
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948.605(2)(b) 1, 2, 4,5,7. were removed by Act 35 and replaced with 1m and 1r. Note that 948.605(2)(b)2 is identical to paragraph ii in 18USC 922 which implies that a person licensed by the state is exempted from the school zone restriction. Paragraph ii in 18USC 922 was also made not applicable under the writings of Act 35.

The new 948.605 confuses me. Taken literally it says to me that if a person has a CCL, carry of a loaded handgun is lawful in the 1000 foot perimeter, but the carry of a firearm on school property is prohibited, license or not. I find it hard to believe that was the intent of the authors of ACT 35. It seems inconsistant with the author's claim that Act 35 is just a stop gap to constitutional carry. It also seems irrational to me that ACT 35 removed 948.605 (2)(b) (4) from 948.605 which now means that teaching firearm saftey courses on school property is a felony if firearms are involved in the training.

Something is all screwed up.

My opinions and not legal advice.

 

[Shotgun]

Respectfully, Captain, you are mistaken. 18 USC 921:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921



Also, out of state permits do NOT exempt you from the Federal Gun Free School Zone prohibition. The permit must be issued by the same state the school zone in question is located in to provide an exemption under Federal law.

Uh, well if I remember correctly it says "licensed" not "issued" by the same state. Wisconsin considers recognized out-of-state licensees to be licensed by Wisconsin. Don't confuse the physical card with the permission: "License" is not only a noun, but a verb. Wisconsin "licensed" out-of-state licensees. Another example: "007 had a "license to kill" does not refer to some card he carried in his pocket. It referred to a permission that was granted to him.

 

[GuidoZ]

... Can someone tell me how to copy and paste the text from a PDF!! I don't have that option and it's frustrating to have to hand type this stuff.

Not going to get involved in the rest of this discussion (not educated enough on WI law), but I dislike seeing a computer question go unanswered.

The PDF must be created in a way that allows text to be highlighted. If it's just a picture scan (as in, JPG without OCR, like many home and small office scanners are), then you won't be able to copy/paste text, let alone highlight, at all. You'll just end up drawing a box around things. If you have a full version of Adobe Acrobat, you can OCR it yourself (aka Optical Character Recognition). Same goes if you have other OCR programs, or wish to try out the many online options, much of which are free.

If the PDF has been made correctly, yet you still can't, make sure you are running the latest version of your chosen reader (Adobe, Foxit, etc) and on the correct selection tool (not the "hand" or something else, but the one that looks like a cursor). Best of luck!

--
Peace. ~G

 

[E6chevron]

1. The considerations involved in a licensee carrying a firearm in the GFSZ doughnut up to 1,000 feet from school grounds.

2. and the legal way for anyone who is not a school contractor, school forest hunter or LEO to possess a firearm while in or on school grounds, or a non-licensee to possess in the dougnut if not on private property,

Is covered in this post: http://forum.opencarry.org./forums/...hool-grounds&p=1653219&viewfull=1#post1653219 including an explanation of how to understand, the very odd wording of subdivision 948.605(2)(b)1r.

 

[E6chevron]

Uh, well if I remember correctly it says "licensed" not "issued" by the same state. Wisconsin considers recognized out-of-state licensees to be licensed by Wisconsin. Don't confuse the physical card with the permission: "License" is not only a noun, but a verb. Wisconsin "licensed" out-of-state licensees. Another example: "007 had a "license to kill" does not refer to some card he carried in his pocket. It referred to a permission that was granted to him.

Good explanation of the "licensed by the state" term. The previous poster gave the correct cite for the definitions for Chapter 44, here is the cite from 18USC922

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title18/pdf/USCODE-2010-title18-partI-chap44-sec922.pdf

18USC922(q)(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Here is the cite for Wisconsin 175.60(2)(d)
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60/2/d?view=section

175.60(2)(d) For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out-of-state licensee is licensed by this state.

The above cite establishes that out-of-state licensees which must be on the DOJ accepted list, are considered licensed by this state. The DOJ accepted list, only has states on it that perform a background check, to verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.

 

[E6chevron]

Too bad the ATF does not agree with you:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

The 10 year old letter on the BATF website, was not dealing with any specific state that had a school zone. There was no way to know if the state had criteria that required background checks for an out-of-state license to be honored. In particular it was unkown if the state had a law like Wisconsin statute 175.60(2)(d) which licenses out-of-state licensees from some states, as cited above. The NRA-ILA staff and others felt that this Wisconsin statute and background check requirement would work as intended.

There have been no arrests for the GFSZ violation by an out-of-state licensee since our statutes were effective Nov. 1, 2011.

 

[OC for ME]

You would likely have time to let go of the wheel before impact. If you wish to avoid a crash to begin with, keep them at 10/2...

Sure, if you can let go of the steering wheel and move your hands/arms away from the 'area' in less than 100 milliseconds, closer to 60-80 milliseconds. The airbag must be completely inflated prior to your 'chest' reaching the surface of the airbag or you will be hit by the inflating airbag.

4/8 is the preferred location, 3/9 is better than 2/10, but not as good as 4/8.

 

[bigdaddy1]

Not good advice in a car with an explosive in the steering wheel (airbag).

3/9 or 4/8 are much safer. At 10/2 you're more likely to be maimed.

Now your getting the ATF involved:banghead:

 

[Captain Nemo]

NavyLCDR:

-(ii) of the federal GFSZ is not valid in Wisconsin via 948.605 1M.

-948.605 1r enacted by Act 35 give a non-resident licensee State authority to carry a handgun in the 1000 foot GFSZ perimeter.

-The defining rule as to if a non-resident license is authorized is if the person's home state requires a background check as part of it's licensing process. If your state did not do a two-step (NICS and State) background check to determine if you are qualified when it issued your license it is not recognized anywhere in Wisconsin, let alone the GFSZ.

Also; There is no federal driver license reciprocity mandate for driver licenses. You can drive in Wisconsin for a specific period of time on an out-of-state license only because Wisconsin permits you to do so. If you change residency to Wisconsin your out-of-state license soon becomes void and you have to re-test under Wisconsin rules. Your out -of-state vehicle operators license is only honored in Wisconsin by permission not by law. This is typical of most states.


My opinions

 

[Shotgun]

Too bad the ATF does not agree with you:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

I don't see anything that contradicts what I wrote. That's right, your out-of-state license doesn't (automatically) work for another state's GFSZ's. But if the state with the GFSZ licenses you, it works. Wisconsin IS licensing you, regardless of which state issued your CCW permit, provided your permit is from a state that WI honors. Wisconsin doesn't have to issue you a paper or card in order to "license" you.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

Sure, if you can let go of the steering wheel and move your hands/arms away from the 'area' in less than 100 milliseconds, closer to 60-80 milliseconds.....

Are you texting or sleeping in your scenario? You would have to be absolutely oblivious of the fact that you are actually operating a motor vehicle if you would not realize that you are about to drive into something. Your milliseconds time is based on trying to remove your hands after the collision has already occurred. If you grip the steering wheel at 8 and 4 and have no plans to let go, you may not be impacted directly by the air bag but your odds of breaking your hands, wrist or even arms is higher.

 

[Herr Heckler Koch]

Wisconsin in 'IMPLEMENTING THE RKABA AN ANALYTICAL FRAMEWORK AND A RESEARCH AGENDA

His 2009 Law Review Article mentions particularly Wisconsin in re 'Bans on Carrying Within One Thousand Feet of a School.' Section II C 6 page 1528 - 1529

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...Carrying-Within-One-Thousand-Feet-of-a-School

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/2am.pdf

 

[Sorcice]

Typically while one is driving(armed or not) and passing buildings surrounded by fields of grass and at minimum one slide and or jungle gym, one does not forget how to drive. Thus your question is moot. If however one frequently forgets how to drive when passing buildings surrounded by fields of grass and at minimum one slide and or jungle gym, please refrain from doing so as to not endanger yourself or others around you. /sarcasm

 

[Shotgun]

So let me get this straight.... the minute I enter Wisconsin with my recognized out of state permit, some Law Enforcement Authority in Wisconsin is automatically going to verify that I am qualified for a carry license?!? How exactly does that work? Do they have permit detectors at the state line? You obviously are ignoring the requirements of 18 USC 922 for a Law Enforcement Agency in the state the school zone is located in to VERIFY - not assume, not trust, not hope - but to actually VERIFY that the INDIVIDUAL qualifies for a carry permit.

But....the facts have been posted....people can make intelligent decisions (or not) based on the source information.

Wisconsin HAS verified. It did that when it added the other state to the list of states that it accepts. It's basically the same process that was used to verify Wisconsin residents.

 

[Shotgun]

California and some other states say it is legal to use marijuana too. Too bad the Federal government says it's not legal. A state cannot make legal what the Federal government declares to be illegal and have it stand up in Federal court. A Federal court of act of Congress (Federal) is required to nullify a Federal law.

In the case of out-of-state licensees, Wisconsin wouldn't be arguing in court that it is legalizing what the Fed's declare to be illegal. It would argue that it is acting precisely in accordance with Federal law, i.e. licensing the out-of-state people.

 

[OC for ME]

Are you texting or sleeping in your scenario? You would have to be absolutely oblivious of the fact that you are actually operating a motor vehicle if you would not realize that you are about to drive into something. Your milliseconds time is based on trying to remove your hands after the collision has already occurred. If you grip the steering wheel at 8 and 4 and have no plans to let go, you may not be impacted directly by the air bag but your odds of breaking your hands, wrist or even arms is higher.

It is funny that you bring up this point. I wonder how many times a cop/trooper has heard "I didn't know it was going to happen (the wreck) until it happened." I think this is another way of saying "Well officer, I was texting and not looking at the road." We all know that driving with two hands on the steering wheel is the right thing to do. Whether or not we do the right thing while driving is a different issue.

The 'natural' reflex of your average driver is to straighten their arms in a illogical attempt to avoid injury during the impact. Analogous to putting your arms out to break your fall when you trip over something. I'll go out on a limb and state that just about everybody does this. Though, I guess some folks do not and let their face hit the ground to prevent injury to their arms or wrists.

At the 2/10 location your arms (elbows) may be nearly straight. If you train yourself to drive at the 3/9 to 4/8 you reduce the likelihood of injury to your arms. With power steering the need for maximum leverage to turn the wheel is no longer a issue. 2/10 provided this leverage.

Fair disclosure, I routinely drive with my arm resting on the door and my other draped over the top of the wheel.

The place for your hands on the steering wheel for maximum control is 2/10, professional race car drivers place their hands there. Then again they do not have airbags installed in their cars. The best place for your hands for the most control while driving and to mitigate injury due to airbag deployment is 3/9 to 4/8 depending on your personal comfort preferences.

http://www.smartmotorist.com/driving-guideline/hands-on-the-steering-wheel.html

http://voices.injuryboard.com/autom...on-the-steering-wheel-times-have-changed.aspx

Anyway, it is unlikely that I would be charged with violating the GFSZ law for simply transiting near a school. I don't even give it a second thought. 1000' is a long way and every homeowner/apartment dweller could have a 'gun' and as soon as they hit the public street they may be violating the law if they carry. I would still like to know what the no permit required to carry states do.

 

[Big Dipper]

I have a couple of related questions about this (Federal GFSZ).


Who would "police" a violation of this anyway? The local police department, sherrif, constable, secret service, FBI?

Are they the ones that normally "police" and cite people for a violation of a Federal law?

If not, how would the local US Attorney, for whatever district, know that a violation had taken place and that he/she should prosecute?

Does anyone know if there have been ANY prosecutions (successful or not) under the Federal GFSZ Act (since the first version was struck down by SCOTUS)?

Could it be that much of the discussion here is not particularly relevant to reality?

 

[Herr Heckler Koch]

The Federal GFSZ is implemented in Wisconsin Statute § 948.605. The federal 18 USC 922 exception applies only to Wisconsin Concealed Carry Licensees and then the state 1r. exception applies only "in or on the grounds of a school." Any law enforcement officer can recommend charges for the DA in investigate and indict. A cop does not charge, he apprehends, detains, investigates and recommends charges.

§ 948.605(2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE.
(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
(b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state
licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).