georg jetson
Regular Member
I can agree with you here... Atheism is part of a religion. However, Christianity is part of a religion as well, so making a distinction based on "all" or "part" gets us nowhere.
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Why I quote Bible Scripture re. firearm ownership and self defence.
- Thread starter Haz.
- Start date
I can agree with you here... Atheism is part of a religion. However, Christianity is part of a religion as well, so making a distinction based on "all" or "part" gets us nowhere.
Tawnos
Regular Member
Gravity isn't observable in its entirety. In fact, we are still trying to explain many of the unknown parts of gravity and why/how it functions at varying scales (from quantum to macro).
georg jetson
Regular Member
This thread reminds me of herding chickens or directing jello......either way...it's all over the place. I think this subject has been debated since the first christian/non-christian conversation.
Lol!! You have to admit though... it's going quite a bit more polite than usual. Progress?
Redbaron007
Regular Member
georg jetson
Regular Member
Gravity is observable in it's entirety. If you're in a gravitational field, a force is exerted on you. The only thing left to find out is the "why". However, the explanation is not entirely observable(from quantum to macro).
georg jetson
Regular Member
This is a generalization. You may "believe" this. I don't. It depends on your religion.
Ignoring the generalization that you seem to have used by implying anyone who is a theist is a religious zealot, I can point out why this won't happen. Many of us theists believe that ignoring the deity will result in a declined individual life. Further, some of us theists might think that there is something greater than the "greater social structure".
More to the point, your belief system(religion) is in direct conflict with many theists belief system(religion). We need to find a way to live together in this free country without imposing our religions on each other. I'm not saying you're imposing, but I AM saying that I consider your position as religious dogma as well and therefore, neither "dogma" should be "imposed".
It also is nonsensical to "believe" that intelligence and order came from nothing. It is more logical to "believe" that intelligence and order existed first and that from this, came everything else.
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Tawnos
Regular Member
I've studied it in depth, cover to cover. That was one of the things which led me away from being a Christian, as I was for many years. Trying to rectify the Bible with the world and with itself, without making any special pleadings, led to me saying "well, this doesn't work." I then started studying other religions, to see if any of them worked. Ultimately, I found no evidence of supreme beings or a divine plan. Just a lot of men looking for answers who weren't okay with saying "I don't know yet, but that's interesting, let's keep studying until we know more."
And in 2 Thessalonians 2, you see the opposite:
" For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. "
So god is sitting there deluding people to condemn them. Or trying to save them. Guess it depends on what part of the bible you want to believe or ignore.
OC for ME
Regular Member
All you "proved" was that five atheists pick on Islam and not just Christianity. Big woop. Did you find "evidence" that other than Christians that the FFRF or ACLU are suing schools for reading the Quran in class?
By the way Chris Hitchens is a "self-described anti-theist" cuz if God is proven to be real then he is off the hook with the atheist community.....and God. I figure his drinking buddies think of him as a atheist or else they too would be anti-theists......or maybe those folks switch depending on the circumstance and who is listening.
I guess you didn't select the link to the LDS site, you know, the official LDS site.
Not according to Chris Hitchens or maybe he chose a different descriptor for himself just to keep our discussion going.
If it is in a textbook in a school we are teaching it. When the Quran is being read in school we are teaching it, in spite of what the 9th Circus says.
Sheer numbers, but I don't see Christians putting up billboards trying to convert the "Faithfull" to Christianity. Nor do I see any billboards stating/inferring that Islam is a sham religion based on mythical beings, with adherents who see their "prophet" on a slice of toast.
You are the very very very rare exception regarding the anti-Christian crowd. The FFRF and ACLU categorically disagree with your position and have put their money where their mouth is.
More Christians? Yep. Stonger support? Depends on who you talk to.
The rest is atheist drivel. Trying to get your digs in cuz I call you a atheist/antitheist and I call myself a Christian does not change the reality in America today. Christians are being "persicuted" by the big two and the other great religions are getting a pass.....with the court's blessings.
Even so, our discussion is not about what you or I beleive/not believe, but what the state and courts force us to do/not do or suffer the consequences.
Tawnos
Regular Member
I think you're wrong or making a special pleading for gravity to try to falsely differentiate it from our understanding of evolution. We don't observe gravity in its entirety. We see how it acts at a macromolecular level within certain confines, yet don't know its edge cases. Consider gravity at the subatomic level, the effects of the Higgs boson, etc (I mean, ffs, we just showed to a five sigma level that the Higgs boson is likely to exist!). We've observed instances of it, some much more than others, but have only experimentation and observation to fall back upon to explain it.
In the same way, evolution is a theory that we've seen many empirical examples of and have quite a good understanding of on the larger scale. We've even set up experiments (long term e.coli, fruit flies, various plants, etc) that have demonstrated some of the very mutation and speciation events that the theory of evolution predicts should occur. That combination of observation and experimentation is why I compare the theory of evolution with the theory of gravity. Their main differentiation in the theory department is the ease of which the average person can observationally set up a repro. Yet ease shouldn't be the defining characteristic of accepting an important scientific theory.
Steeler-gal
Regular Member
This thread reminds me of herding chickens or directing jello......either way...it's all over the place. I think this subject has been debated since the first christian/non-christian conversation.
Agreed +1000
It seems like the original topic or point of this thread has been lost or shredded
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Tawnos
Regular Member
billboard trying to convince muslims to become christian
scare billboard by christian group about Islam
church billboard claiming islam teaches murder and jesus teaches peace
threats of sharia law (they may be right, but I think it's the Christians bringing it, not the Muslims)
anti-muslim billboard trying to stop a muslim church (mosque)
generic "jesus is the answer" (the question was "who farted?")
another generic jesus billboard
Anti atheist billboard calling atheists treasonous
anti-atheist billboard claiming we're murderers
claiming that they can "cure" gay as if it's a disease
And there are many others I've seen, those are just what I could find with a quick search.
Uh, the ACLU isn't an anti-Christian organization.e.g.
Tawnos
Regular Member
I've had it go both ways. Some mormons don't want to be called "mormons", they want to be called "christians". Others go the other way. Most I know go by LDS.
VW_Factor
Regular Member
slowfiveoh
Regular Member
The evidence for my position is far stronger than the faith derived nonsense from the religious position.
I don't particularly care where you place your belief so long as it does not impede logic, common sense, and rationality.
So why exactly is your "greater purpose" and believed in deity supposedly more sound or rational than every other religion?
Please expound upon this using factual data.
I would say you are confused, but truth is, you are not. You are blatantly still trying to equate Atheism with religion. This is false, and I believe at this point you are merely trying to antagonize instead of having rational conversation.
Again, for those observing. Atheism is merely the belief that there is no god. That's it.
It is as much a "religion" as believing my motorcycle is where I last parked it, in the garage.
[video=youtube;DSzttF8EXrE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSzttF8EXrE[/video] (For the lulz)
Wow. So our country works of a structure. Its structure is based on order, critical thinking, rationality, and evidence. This is purely scientific.
That IS, by far, the evolutionary Atheists standard. That is ACTUALLY WHAT WE USE.
The Christian method would have us conferring with the Bible every single time something came up.
Yeah bro, especially when all evidence points to the contrary.
Thats #1 sensible.
:lol:Your statements were that "Atheists" were specifically leading a campaign against Christianity.
Those were YOUR words.
I merely showed you that even the worlds LEADING atheists were targeting other religions, but this wasn't good enough for you.
Your scale is broken, get it fixed.
"Was" a self-described anti-theist. One can be Atheist and Anti-Theist. You guys not knowing the simple meaning of the terms is whats comical here.
Atheist - "Doesn't believe in a God."
Anti-Theist - "Specifically is against the teachings of the presence of a God."
For the sake of decent conversation PLEASE at least know your terms and what they mean prior to engaging in conversation.
Why would I do that? Part of the family is Mormon and I have Mormon friends. I see Tawnos post and have to say I have never seen one of them not get offended by being called "Christians". Interesting that his experience is dissimilar.
No, Christopher Hitchens was smarter than either of us combined and knew that the term "Anti-Theist" was appropriate because Atheists may or may not have an Anti-Theistic approach.
Richard Dawkins also calls himself an Anti-Theist.
The context is knowing whether one is adamantly speaking against deistic religion or simply does not believe in a deity. One can be either or, or both.
This is why it is so hard to speak rationally with religious nuts sometimes. You don't even know what you're talking about because religion is often believed to provide all of the knowledge or standards necessary to avoid actual education.
What the hell are you talking about Dingleberry? Where did I ever give the idea that I was for anything religious being taught in public schools?
Islam can gtfo of public schools as well!
Tawnos handled this quite nicely.
Nothing to add here.
Not true. Most Atheists don't give a rats crap what/how/where you worship or what you read before the big test. What we do NOT want is religious material (such as the Qur'an) being taught as education. I wouldn't even care if they simply used the Bible or the Qur'an as grammatical lessons for English review of writing styles. Who cares so long as it is not being taught as truth.
"Atheist Drivel" usually carries more fact, history, and specificity than religious rhetoric. So I will bank on "Atheist drivel" every time and come out smelling like roses.
okiephlyer
Regular Member
The definition was not mine, but from encyclopedia brittanica. If you don't like their definition, take it up with them.
Gaps -
"As we all know, Tiktaalik roseae is a magnificent example of a transitional fossil connecting aquatic critters–fish–with tetrapods, 4-limbed critters. Nevertheless, there are still gaps in that transitional sequence."
a direct cut and paste from your first referenced link.
The science does not prove the evolution theory. When the science is complete, then call me. Until then, I am going back to other pursuits.
Shoobee
Regular Member
wiki is a lot more reliable. It is constantly being updated.
Shoobee
Regular Member
Mormons believe in Jesus which makes them Christian. Some of their ideas like polygamy are a blend of muslim and Christian.
Some of their ideas are very gnostic, an early form of Chistian which the Roman church abandoned. Hence modern Protestants have abandoned it also.
You can divide modern Christianity into 4 broad groups -- Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Protestant, and LDS (mormon). They'er all Christian.
Anyone calling any of these not Christian is not Christian themselves.
The Catholics believe St. Peter founded their church and it has been valid since 33 AD when Peter took over.
The Orthodox believe St. Paul founded their church and it has been valid since 60 AD when Paul took over.
The Protestants believe the Catholics went astray and that Martin Luther founded their church and it has been valid since 1521.
The Mormons believe all the other churches have gone astray and that Joseph Smith Jr founded their church and it has been valid since 1820.
Toss a coin. Or roll the dice. God apparently plays games, and this is one of those games.
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Shoobee
Regular Member
After all this chit chat, it is still readily apparent that there is nothing in the Bible about guns or gun rights.
You all are confusing the Bible with the Second Amendment.
They are separated by thousands of years.
Here is my favorite shoobee-tized scripture:
Yay though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for I am the most heavily armed mother loving son in the valley.
You all are confusing the Bible with the Second Amendment.
They are separated by thousands of years.
Here is my favorite shoobee-tized scripture:
Yay though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for I am the most heavily armed mother loving son in the valley.
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Tawnos
Regular Member
What an ignorant statement. To paraphrase a quote: "When science is done, it stops."
Notice how you go from "not a single instance" of transitional life forms to "well, there are some that we haven't found"? How far are you going to move those goalposts?
Shoobee
Regular Member
How did we get onto Darwinian evolution?
Darwinian evolution is an hypothesis. It cannot be proved one way or the other.
Same as the theory of relativity. It is a theory that cannot be proved either.
The law of gravity is a law. What goes up must come down. That is, unless you exceed the escape velocity of the Earth in which case it will never come down again, not here at least.
Darwinian evolution is an hypothesis. It cannot be proved one way or the other.
Same as the theory of relativity. It is a theory that cannot be proved either.
The law of gravity is a law. What goes up must come down. That is, unless you exceed the escape velocity of the Earth in which case it will never come down again, not here at least.