oc in walmart first ever bad experience cops called

tcbrad98 · Nov 20, 2013

I'm not confusing the two types of rules, simply making people aware of a Walmart specific rule that applies at all Walmarts, because the company policy is to follow state law. I will see if my wife can find that particular rule so that members can cite it if they have an issue.

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eye95 · Nov 20, 2013

JustaShooter said:
And if they say "the manager (or owner) told me to ask you to leave" when they approach me or if when I ask to speak with the manager or owner I get a similar response, then I'll do as you indicated you would. But I'm not going to just leave unless someone with authority has asked that I do so - but I'm also not going to refuse to leave, rather as I said I'd ask to speak with the manager or owner.

Good luck with that.

Folks, I would not recommend following suit. When asked to leave, leave. Having left prematurely can (except for your pride) be fixed later. Leaving too late could well turn out not to be fixable without penalty.

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eye95 · Nov 20, 2013

tcbrad98 said:
I'm not confusing the two types of rules, simply making people aware of a Walmart specific rule that applies at all Walmarts, because the company policy is to follow state law. I will see if my wife can find that particular rule so that members can cite it if they have an issue.

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No one entering Walmart would have certainty of such a rule. Again, if asked to leave, leave. Find out whether the petty functionary had the authority to eject you later, when you are not subject to arrest.

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WalkingWolf · Nov 20, 2013

eye95 said:
No one entering Walmart would have certainty of such a rule. Again, if asked to leave, leave. Find out whether the petty functionary had the authority to eject you later, when you are not subject to arrest.

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I agree! I would not even ask to talk to a manager(inside the store). I would leave and call the store from the parking lot. Cell phones are a great thing sometimes.

carolina guy · Nov 20, 2013

ohiopatriot said:
i always intended to get a recorder but after 3 yrs and no incidents i guess i kinda forgot about getting one to cover myself. also sorry about capitalization and all that but my smart phone isnt so smart.

You have a smartphone...load a recording app at minimum...

eye95 · Nov 20, 2013

carolina guy said:
You have a smartphone...load a recording app at minimum...

A stopgap measure at best. Recorders can go for more than a day running without running out of power. So you can start recording when you leave the house in the morning and stop it in the evening when you get home. That'd kill almost all cell phone batteries long before your ran out of day.

When you are already in the middle of it, saying, "Hang, on. I gotta turn on my recorder app," is not usually an option.

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carolina guy · Nov 20, 2013

eye95 said:
A stopgap measure at best. Recorders can go for more than a day running without running out of power. So you can start recording when you leave the house in the morning and stop it in the evening when you get home. That'd kill almost all cell phone batteries long before your ran out of day.

When you are already in the middle of it, saying, "Hang, on. I gotta turn on my recorder app," is not usually an option.

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True...but it is better than nothing, which the OP has been using for the last few years. I know my phone can record for hours without charging if you dont have a load of other stuff running in the background...and it can stream if needed.

notalawyer · Nov 20, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
I agree! I would not even ask to talk to a manager(inside the store). I would leave and call the store from the parking lot. Cell phones are a great thing sometimes.

Keep in mind that depending on the layout (and the exact words used by the person telling you to leave) the parking may also be their exclusive property and staying in the parking lot, when asked to leave, might also open one to a trespass charge just like staying in the building.

WalkingWolf · Nov 20, 2013

notalawyer said:
Keep in mind that depending on the layout (and the exact words used by the person telling you to leave) the parking may also be their exclusive property and staying in the parking lot, when asked to leave, might also open one to a trespass charge just like staying in the building.

That's a possibility, but Walmart leases the property, the property owner maintains the lot. I don't think a jury would convict on it, but IANAL.

notalawyer · Nov 20, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
That's a possibility, but Walmart leases the property, the property owner maintains the lot. I don't think a jury would convict on it, but IANAL.

IF Walmart shares the lot with other stores, perhaps. Around here all (most) of the Walmarts are stand-alone.

WalkingWolf · Nov 20, 2013

notalawyer said:
IF Walmart shares the lot with other stores, perhaps. Around here all (most) of the Walmarts are stand-alone.

True but they still lease and at least here the landlord maintains the property rights. I still don't think a jury would convict unless the person was actually told they were trespassed from the lot also, or trespassed in the lot.

XD40sc · Nov 20, 2013

Wal-Wart pays minimum wage, thus employs the minimally intelligent. No surprise there. I don't do Wal-Wart unless there is no other option, and there almost always is.

eye95 · Nov 20, 2013

notalawyer said:
Keep in mind that depending on the layout (and the exact words used by the person telling you to leave) the parking may also be their exclusive property and staying in the parking lot, when asked to leave, might also open one to a trespass charge just like staying in the building.

I am going to listen very carefully to what the ejector is saying. If he says I can't carry in the store, I put my gun in the car and come back in. If he says get out of the store, I am going to the parking lot and call the manager. If he says get off the property, I will drive to a nearby parking lot and call the manager.

The point is that, when ejected, that is not the time for a legal discussion. Just leave whatever area you have been instructed to leave and then deal with the legality and the propriety of the ejection later.

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WalkingWolf · Nov 20, 2013

eye95 said:
I am going to listen very carefully to what the ejector is saying. If he says I can't carry in the store, I put my gun in the car and come back in. If he says get out of the store, I am going to the parking lot and call the manager. If he says get off the property, I will drive to a nearby parking lot and call the manager.

The point is that, when ejected, that is not the time for a legal discussion. Just leave whatever area you have been instructed to leave and then deal with the legality and the propriety of the ejection later.

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Agree!

color of law · Nov 20, 2013

eye95 said:
I am going to listen very carefully to what the ejector is saying. If he says I can't carry in the store, I put my gun in the car and come back in. If he says get out of the store, I am going to the parking lot and call the manager. If he says get off the property, I will drive to a nearby parking lot and call the manager.

The point is that, when ejected, that is not the time for a legal discussion. Just leave whatever area you have been instructed to leave and then deal with the legality and the propriety of the ejection later.

All these scenarios are great, but what if you are confronted by police officers and a LP claiming s/he told you to leave and you refused. Does Waverly, OH ring a bell?

The presumption that cops, LPs and even citizens are honest is not wise. They have an agenda and their agenda is not necessarily in your best interest.

eye95 · Nov 20, 2013

color of law said:
All these scenarios are great, but what if you are confronted by police officers and a LP claiming s/he told you to leave and you refused. Does Waverly, OH ring a bell?

The presumption that cops, LPs and even citizens are honest is not wise. They have an agenda and their agenda is not necessarily in your best interest.

There will be an audio recording of the event. On it will be the clear demand of the employee, my vocal assent to the demand, and the sound of me walking toward the exit. All of that will be so instantaneous to the demand that any lie will be absolutely refuted. Instead of the employee being disciplined, I will bring charges of the employee lying to the police. I will also seek civil damages for any loss on my part.

Simple.

Do things right and record everything.

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MyWifeSaidYes · Nov 20, 2013

eye95 said:
...Do things right and record everything.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

XD40sc · Nov 20, 2013

Also realize that right now every retail business is hiring a bunch of 'seasonal' employees, including loss prevention people. No telling if they have any actual knowledge, perhaps their last employment in security was as a 'seasonal' mall cop last year.

I don't go to Wal-wart not because of the customers (though there are things that cannot be un-seen), but the employees. I have never seen such a collection of people that just don't give a damn, nor can I blame them for what they are paid.

WalkingWolf · Nov 20, 2013

XD40sc said:
Also realize that right now every retail business is hiring a bunch of 'seasonal' employees, including loss prevention people. No telling if they have any actual knowledge, perhaps their last employment in security was as a 'seasonal' mall cop last year.

I don't go to Wal-wart not because of the customers (though there are things that cannot be un-seen), but the employees. I have never seen such a collection of people that just don't give a damn, nor can I blame them for what they are paid.

Funny you mention Walmart, I was in line and the girl ahead of me was trying to purchase wine. She told the cashier that her ID was in the car, and then the cashier asked for date of birth. Fortunately the girl found her ID, before the cashier could break the law. I really thought all cashiers knew that selling without a ID under a certain age is likely to get them arrested if a officer witnesses it. I can't remember the age that they must ask for ID, but this girl was in her early twenties, and IMO looked like she might be underage.

docachna · Nov 21, 2013

Inducing panic

ohiopatriot said:
He tried to pull the old "well if someone gets scared from seeing you open carry we can charge you with inducing a panic " and compared open carry to yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Police can CHARGE anybody they want with ANYTHING they want.

Getting a conviction - or even preventing the prosecutor from tossing the case -- is another matter entirely.

Having said all that, I'd suggest asking your cousin to read the Inducing Panic statute. There are only 3 possibilities that they can say you committed:

917.31 Inducing panic.

(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

I just don't see a violation of Inducing Panic:

* Carrying a weapon is not "circulating a report".
* Carrying a weapon is not "threatening to commit" an offense of violence.
* Carrying a weapon is not an "offense" (assuming you are legally entitled to be carrying it in the manner in which you were carrying it.)

It's awfully risky for police to charge someone under a statute because they "feel like" it's a violation of it. They'd better be damned sure of the specific elements of the statute that the person violated.

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