oc in walmart first ever bad experience cops called

[Werz]

The point is that, when ejected, that is not the time for a legal discussion. Just leave whatever area you have been instructed to leave and then deal with the legality and the propriety of the ejection later.

All these scenarios are great, but what if you are confronted by police officers and a LP claiming s/he told you to leave and you refused. Does Waverly, OH ring a bell?

I hear a bell ringing. That bell tells me there was Wal-Mart surveillance video. And that bell tells me that, after much sturm und drang, there was a plea to Disorderly Conduct.

Things are never as clear-cut as they seem.

 

[carolina guy]

I am going to listen very carefully to what the ejector is saying. If he says I can't carry in the store, I put my gun in the car and come back in. If he says get out of the store, I am going to the parking lot and call the manager. If he says get off the property, I will drive to a nearby parking lot and call the manager.

The point is that, when ejected, that is not the time for a legal discussion. Just leave whatever area you have been instructed to leave and then deal with the legality and the propriety of the ejection later.


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+1

 

[JustaShooter]

Last I checked with regards to criminal trespassing in Ohio it doesn't matter who it is.

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

Last I checked a a waitress working for $3 an hour is an occupant and/or a servant of the owner. The stock boy also has ORC authority to tell you to leave. Once they say you need to leave, that's good enough for the law. If you want to ask for someone higher up you can, but it's not required as far as the law is concerned.

I was mis-remembering the wording of that section of the ORC, so thank you for that. As such in light of this discussion I am going to re-evaluate my position and will treat an employee as having authority to ask me to leave. And unless the employee used words to the effect that they are acting under the direction of the manager or owner, I'll also likely make sure to let the employee know that on my way out I will be calling the manager / owner so they should probably start heading to the manager's / owner's office straight away.

 

[XD40sc]

Funny you mention Walmart, I was in line and the girl ahead of me was trying to purchase wine. She told the cashier that her ID was in the car, and then the cashier asked for date of birth. Fortunately the girl found her ID, before the cashier could break the law. I really thought all cashiers knew that selling without a ID under a certain age is likely to get them arrested if a officer witnesses it. I can't remember the age that they must ask for ID, but this girl was in her early twenties, and IMO looked like she might be underage.

In NC they are supposed to 'card' people if they look 27 or younger. Some convergence stores even have a sign posted to that effect.

 

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...unless the employee used words to the effect that they are acting under the direction of the manager or owner...

Contact the manager anyway. You'll want to verify the employee's story. If it's true, you'll want the contact info for the manager's supervisor.

 

[carolina guy]

In NC they are supposed to 'card' people if they look 27 or younger. Some convergence stores even have a sign posted to that effect.

You wouldn't happen to have a cite for that, would you? I have never seen anything in NCGS that says anything other than sales to and consumption by persons under 21 is prohibited. Otherwise, I think that is just a "suggestion" by the ALE and various ABC Boards to discourage prohibited sales.

e.g. http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_18B/GS_18B-302.html

 

[WalkingWolf]

You wouldn't happen to have a cite for that, would you? I have never seen anything in NCGS that says anything other than sales to and consumption by persons under 21 is prohibited. Otherwise, I think that is just a "suggestion" by the ALE and various ABC Boards to discourage prohibited sales.

e.g. http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_18B/GS_18B-302.html

I don't know about a cite, but ALE have arrested clerks in this area for not carding, not just selling to underage but not carding.

 

[carolina guy]

I don't know about a cite, but ALE have arrested clerks in this area for not carding, not just selling to underage but not carding.

If it is the typical ALE sting, they are sending in underage buyers. From the NCGS that I have seen, there is no actual requirement to check ID to verify age, so I would be curious to know what the clerks were even charged with doing?!

The closest that I can find is NCGS 18B-302 (although this is for victims of underage drinkers seeking compensation):

§ 18B-122. Burden of proof and admissibility of evidence.
The plaintiff shall have the burden of proving that the sale or furnishing of the alcoholic beverage to the underage person, as defined, was, under the circumstances, negligent. Proof of the sale or furnishing of the alcoholic beverage to an underage person, as defined, without request for identification shall be admissible as evidence of negligence. Proof of good practices (including but not limited to, instruction of employees as to laws regarding the sale of alcoholic beverages, training of employees, enforcement techniques, admonishment to patrons concerning laws regarding the purchase or furnishing of alcoholic beverages, or detention of a person's identification documents in accordance with G.S. 18B-129 and inquiry about the age or degree of intoxication of the person), evidence that an underage person misrepresented his age, or that the sale or furnishing was made under duress is admissible as evidence that the permittee was not negligent. (1983, c. 435, s. 37.)

My guess is that the clerks that were arrested for not checking IDs are accused of knowing that the person was under 21 per NCGS 18B-302(c) :

(c) Aider and Abettor.
(1) By Underage Person. - Any person who is under the lawful age to purchase and who aids or abets another in violation of subsection (a), (a1), or (b) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(2) By Person over Lawful Age. - Any person who is over the lawful age to purchase and who aids or abets another in violation of subsection (a), (a1), or (b) of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

 

[JustaShooter]

Contact the manager anyway. You'll want to verify the employee's story. If it's true, you'll want the contact info for the manager's supervisor.

Good point.

 

[tcbrad98]

Well I found this online https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVgdyzwdNE and I'm working on getting the specific policy number to tell them to reference if they hassle you. As always use your best judgement.

 

[Maverick9]

We live in a relatively small town, but there are 4 Walmarts within 9 miles. Go to a different store, or order online.

Life is short.

Just don't put your firearm in the car and go back in. I might be traveling though and choose to shop there and I don't want a BG watching you do this, break into your car and go in and shoot up the store. It takes 30 seconds to get in a car, often under 10 seconds. It takes a screwdriver and knowing where to look to open your cabled pistol box almost instantly.

I mean, why not put it in the pistol box and bring it into the store with you? Srsly!

 

[eye95]

Potentially bad advice. If you have been told that you have to take the gun out and you bring it back in, even in a pistol case, you are now trespassing. If they told you to get out, without mentioning the gun, the mere fact that YOU came back in would be trespassing.

Folks, listen carefully (and record) the instructions you were given. Follow them to the letter until the matter is resolved. That may well mean leaving your gun in your car. Such can be done in a way that would generally escape observation by BGs or anyone else.

And a BG stealing your gun to shoot up the WM??? That ranks right up there with the mythical gun-grab or being-the-first-one-shot. Take normal precautions with your gun. Don't let pie-in-the-sky scenarios inform your choices.


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[WalkingWolf]

Potentially bad advice. If you have been told that you have to take the gun out and you bring it back in, even in a pistol case, you are now trespassing. If they told you to get out, without mentioning the gun, the mere fact that YOU came back in would be trespassing.

Folks, listen carefully (and record) the instructions you were given. Follow them to the letter until the matter is resolved. That may well mean leaving your gun in your car. Such can be done in a way that would generally escape observation by BGs or anyone else.

And a BG stealing your gun to shoot up the WM??? That ranks right up there with the mythical gun-grab or being-the-first-one-shot. Take normal precautions with your gun. Don't let pie-in-the-sky scenarios inform your choices.


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Damn it, I agree with you! Also invest in a lock box or cable locks for securing firearms in the vehicle. They are not that expensive, not many bad guys walk around with bolt cutters. It is not a guarantee, but it increases your security. I have never had my car broken into, at least not in the last 40 years, for me it is mostly for peace of mind. Same reason I have a safe in the house, I know they can be defeated with enough effort, but I feel better having one.

 

[SteveInCO]

Damn it, I agree with you! Also invest in a lock box or cable locks for securing firearms in the vehicle. They are not that expensive, not many bad guys walk around with bolt cutters. It is not a guarantee, but it increases your security. I have never had my car broken into, at least not in the last 40 years, for me it is mostly for peace of mind. Same reason I have a safe in the house, I know they can be defeated with enough effort, but I feel better having one.

And I will agree as well. If there were ever an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good, the attitude that "this is easy to defeat so why bother" for security is it.

I use one of those cable lock boxes myself. I just wish it were a bit bigger, and I'd like one for all of my vehicles (it's a pain to move it to another vehicle in a cramped garage). But then I'd want them keyed alike for the key that overrides the touch combo.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I don't know about a cite, but ALE have arrested clerks in this area for not carding, not just selling to underage but not carding.

where I used to work the training was the "think 27" that is if the person is obviously over 27 then it's not nessecary, but if they might be under then always card them... I don't think it was a law, it was just kroger policy....