Quick Question

eye95 said:

Just plain old reason does. Laws are cited in most posts on OCDO. Cites are rarely provided. Why not? Because the cites are unchallenged. Again, if and when this poster says I am wrong (as he seems to be implying), I will cite.

Feel free to continue stalking me, and nitpicking away. It is making clear to all who read what you are doing. I will move on, awaiting an on-topic reply.

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..............................:lol: ^ ^ ^ :lol:

BTW - I agree it is or should be clear to anyone reading that adherance to the rules is a basic responsibilty of all that use this site. What is diiferent is that others oblige w/o avoidance. This law of which you speak is not common knowledge amongst all of our readers.

I will provide one such cite.
[h=6]Q: What constitutes residency in a State?[/h] The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#state-purchase

What is your "home of record"? Being in the military provides for you to claim residency in two states even though you are permanently stationed in a state not your home of record. Many states provide exemptions to active duty military and their spouses. What I do not know is the status of reserves/Nat Guard.

I for many years carried a license that was not from the state the I claimed as my home of record. Cops would look at the expiration date and my military ID and tell me to slow it down a bit. Cops respect the military and if you are in compliance with local law the cops will likely extend a thank you for your service with a smile. The rub is the requirements to obtain a handgun in your home of record state.

Thank you for your service and be safe.

OC for ME said:

What is your "home of record"? Being in the military provides for you to claim residency in two states even though you are permanently stationed in a state not your home of record. Many states provide exemptions to active duty military and their spouses. What I do not know is the status of reserves/Nat Guard.

I for many years carried a license that was [strike]not[/strike] from the state the I claimed as my home of record. Cops would look at the expiration date and my military ID and tell me to slow it down a bit. Cops respect the military and if you are in compliance with local law the cops will likely extend a thank you for your service with a smile. The rub is the requirements to obtain a handgun in your home of record state.

Thank you for your service and be safe.

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Sorry.

Grapeshot said:

..............................:lol: ^ ^ ^ :lol:

BTW - I agree it is or should be clear to anyone reading that adherance to the rules is a basic responsibilty of all that use this site. What is diiferent is that others oblige w/o avoidance. This law of which you speak is not common knowledge amongst all of our readers.

I will provide one such cite.
[h=6]Q: What constitutes residency in a State?[/h] The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#state-purchase

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eye95 is no longer on active duty in the armed forces....

he claims to work at a base exchange in Ohio but his "residence" is in Alabama, but claims he's a resident of both states for GCA. He may be a resident of both states for tax purposes

but that's a different title of United States Code then the GCA. since 922 states it's unlawful to sell a handgun to someone who resides in a different state unless that person maintains a place of business in the state where the dealer is. maybe eye95 claims his employer as a place of business, not inconcievable.

But I would be very interested in what rule he's citing, because I don't think the law allows for that....

For a quick answer, grab a 4473. (They are available as a PDF online if you don't have a paper copy.) Look at the instructions for Question 13, State of Residence. You will find the following explanation:

"If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2.)"

A weekend home is one example. For yet another example, snowbirds who summer in NY and winter in FL could have two residences. I almost always stay in OH, but own a house in AL and stay there sometimes. When I stay at that home, even for a single day, AL is my residence for the purpose of buying a handgun.

If you'd like more, ask and ye shall receive.

Talk to me like an adult, and I will respond in kind. Treat me in the off-handed and disrespectful way you did earlier, and you will get the same from me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

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lets see to purchase a firearm from a FFL you must provide appropriate state of residence identification, normally the individual's driver's license is accepted documentation by the FFl. cite AFT 5300, para 478.11 definitions dtd 2005.

IAW OCR 4510.61
ARTICLE II Definitions
As used in this compact:
(a) "State" means a state, territory, or possession of the United States, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.
(b) "Home state" means the state that has issued and has the power to suspend or revoke the use of the license or permit to operate a motor vehicle.

ARTICLE V Applications for New Licenses
Upon application for a license to drive, the licensing authority in a party state shall ascertain whether the applicant has ever held, or is the holder of, a license to drive issued by any other party state. The licensing authority in the state where application is made shall not issue a license to drive to the applicant if:

(1) The applicant has held such a license, but the same has been suspended by reason, in whole or in part, of a violation and if such suspension period has not terminated.
(2) The applicant has held such a license, but the same has been revoked by reason, in whole or in part, of a violation; and if such revocation has not terminated, except that after the expiration of one year from the date the license was revoked, such person may make application for a new license if permitted by law. The licensing authority may refuse to issue a license to any such applicant if, after investigation, the licensing authority determines that it will not be safe to grant to such person the privilege of driving a motor vehicle on the public highways.

(3) The applicant is the holder of a license to drive issued by another party state and currently in force unless the applicant surrenders such license.

appropriate cite IAW forum conventions: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4510.61

now i am sure AL was signatory to a similar stating document.

so, Eye, how are you legally purchasing firearms from both states again?

ipse

The definition of State of residence is, in simplified form, where one stays for the purpose of making a home. There is nothing in the law that says that one can only have one residence.

I own houses in two different States. My wife routinely lives in one. I routinely live in the other. We both live, from time to time, in the other houses. Both are our homes. Both qualify as our residences at times when we "stay" in those homes.

This is nothing unusual. I sell guns for a living. I routinely must make the call whether someone is a resident of Ohio or not. I have studied the hell outta this subject. When I have ever been uncertain, I have contacted my local ATF agent. My understanding has always been correct according to that agent. Many of my customers have multiple States of residence. Ironically, that is usually NOT the active duty military. Most of them who are stationed outside of Ohio but have a "home of record" in Ohio do not reside in Ohio for the purposes of purchasing firearms. They are not "making a home" in Ohio.

ATF 5300, Questions and Answsers section, F2 on page 181 states:
F2) May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of another State?
Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensed dealer to a nonlicensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the seller’s licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser’s State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3)]

thank goodness military members have special dispensation by ATF but me thinks you might benefit from contacting your AFT agent to review your sales procedures against 5300 to assure you are not putting your BX at risk.

ipse

We verify the residency of every purchaser carefully. They are required to provide an unexpired, government-issued document bearing their resident address in Ohio (in addition to the other three requirements, photo, DOB, and name). Furthermore, the customer swears to their State of residence and Ohio address when they sign the form. I am thoroughly confident in our procedures, as vetted by the General Counsel to the corporation. Also, I have contacted the Cincy ATF office every time I have had a concern. Every time, my judgment was borne out.

But, thank you for your (misplaced) concern.

I am amazed by how much those who do not sell guns under an FFL on a daily basis know about the process and how little I do.

alas be extremely careful challenging something as your leap of faith with your last sentence is very thin and on shaky ground as you might be truly surprised since as you do not know my or for that matter any of the other posters true capabilities nor experience base yet you have provided through your commentary out here way too much information. Especially since, as you state and alude, are a the subordinate employee under the FFL and as such have no pecuniary responsibility if you fail to follow BATF guidance since FFL will be held responsible for failing to properly train you in your duties!

if nothing else we can read and provide cites which show rational thought processes verses 'opinionated' based hyperbole.

and interestingly you state you verify the servicemember or nonlicensee's resident address in OH to meet BATF regulations yet you state you are able to purchase firearms in another state?

ipse

so how on earth does your BX manage to facilitate AFT guidance

ATF 5300 general questions page 176, dtd 05,
B2 From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State the purchaser resides. ....

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

You might want to be careful how you state what you claim I state.

I don't just say that I am "able to purchase firearms in another state." I am saying, quite clearly, that I am a resident of Alabama and, when I am staying in that State, it is perfectly lawful for me to buy handguns there. I can establish my residence there with government-issued documents and can swear to that residence on a 4473 with perfect confidence and a clear conscience as the buyer. Also, were I the seller, I would accept similar statements and documents establishing residence with equal confidence and an equally clear conscience.

Since you are now clearly only trying to antagonize and, instead of helping readers gain clarity, you are clouding the issue by making it personal, I shall just move on to discussing with others.

Folks, if the preceding conversation has confused you in any way, I will be happy to provide clarity. I have to do it on a daily basis, which sometimes includes refusing to sell a firearm because someone who believes he has some connection to Ohio is not a resident, i.e., is not staying in Ohio with the intention of making a home here.

It is quite possible for a person to be a resident of multiple States for the purpose of purchasing handguns. The ATF 4473 recognizes this possibility AND even provides an example.

Can you use a vacation home electric bill, in Alabama, with a OH state issued ID (OHDL)? This seems to be the scenario that most folks should think of, as I do, when a vacation home is mentioned in the instructions of the 4473, to enable a "proceed" response from the check.

OC for ME said:

Can you use a vacation home electric bill, in Alabama, with a OH state issued ID (OHDL)? This seems to be the scenario that most folks should think of, as I do, when a vacation home is mentioned in the instructions of the 4473, to enable a "proceed" response from the check.

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Sorry, the proceed is the CBC. :banghead:

eye95 said:

You might want to be careful how you state what you claim I state.

I don't just say that I am "able to purchase firearms in another state." I am saying, quite clearly, that I am a resident of Alabama and, when I am staying in that State, it is perfectly lawful for me to buy handguns there. I can establish my residence there with government-issued documents and can swear to that residence on a 4473 with perfect confidence and a clear conscience as the buyer. Also, were I the seller, I would accept similar statements and documents establishing residence with equal confidence and an equally clear conscience.

Since you are now clearly only trying to antagonize and, instead of helping readers gain clarity, you are clouding the issue by making it personal, I shall just move on to discussing with others.

Folks, if the preceding conversation has confused you in any way, I will be happy to provide clarity. I have to do it on a daily basis, which sometimes includes refusing to sell a firearm because someone who believes he has some connection to Ohio is not a resident, i.e., is not staying in Ohio with the intention of making a home here.

It is quite possible for a person to be a resident of multiple States for the purpose of purchasing handguns. The ATF 4473 recognizes this possibility AND even provides an example.

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I'm still sort of suspicious of the claim... but hey if the ATF tells you it's ok, and you think it's ok, and your doing it.... well I guess it's OK for you....
I'm not convinced of the legality, and it can happen that an aggressive US Attorney decides to charge anyway and ignore whatever the ATF told you........

But I don't personally care that you're doing it, and I'm certainly not going to "tattle" to the ATF about it. I don't doubt that you believe it's legal, I don't doubt that an ATF agent believes it's legal..... I would be myself more worried about what a US Atty will think if they ever look at you for something, just like that Abramski guy who's going to the supreme court. he bought a handgun for his uncle with his uncles money, then took it to another FFL and who transferred it to his uncle and they nailed him for straw purchase when they served a warrant for an unrelated crime they couldn't find evidence of...

OC for ME said:

Can you use a vacation home electric bill, in Alabama, with a OH state issued ID (OHDL)? This seems to be the scenario that most folks should think of, as I do, when a vacation home is mentioned in the instructions of the 4473, to enable a "proceed" response from the check.

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Electric bills tend to be issued by private companies, so no. However, in Fairborn, the city is the water company. So, a Fairborn water bill, with the purchasers name on it, combined with a military ID, provides all four required elements of proof of identity and residence.

Customers also use hunting and fishing licenses, CHLs, vehicle registration documents, tax documents (provided by the government; w-4s and w-2s are not usually provided by the government).

The keys are: The document(s) must provide name, DOB, picture, and Ohio residence address (for a handgun; the requirements are different for long guns in Ohio). More than one document may be used to establish the four elements, however the documents must be linked by the name.

Yes, I can use an OH DL (with my Ohio address on it) and another government-issued document with my Alabama address and my name on it to purchase a handgun in Alabama.

Again, the ATF fully recognizes the possibility that one may have more than one State of residence. They say so on the 4473 and even provide an example.

EMNofSeattle said:

I'm still sort of suspicious of the claim... but hey if the ATF tells you it's ok, and you think it's ok, and your doing it.... well I guess it's OK for you....
I'm not convinced of the legality, and it can happen that an aggressive US Attorney decides to charge anyway and ignore whatever the ATF told you........

But I don't personally care that you're doing it, and I'm certainly not going to "tattle" to the ATF about it. I don't doubt that you believe it's legal, I don't doubt that an ATF agent believes it's legal..... I would be myself more worried about what a US Atty will think if they ever look at you for something, just like that Abramski guy who's going to the supreme court. he bought a handgun for his uncle with his uncles money, then took it to another FFL and who transferred it to his uncle and they nailed him for straw purchase when they served a warrant for an unrelated crime they couldn't find evidence of...

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Please look over the instructions printed on the form 4473 itself. You can easily locate a PDF online. The instructions for the State or Residence block (13, IIRC) clearly state that one may have more than one State of residence, and even provides an example not too dissimilar from my own circumstance.

Thanks. Learned something new.

OC for ME said:

Thanks. Learned something new.

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You're welcome.

It is amazing how productive conversations here can be when approached as you have here in the thread.

Thank you, too.

Water bill is out on my SC farm. We draw from a well. Septic system. Electricity is actually from SCE&G, the phone is a farmers co-op. I guess I'll need to run county water to the ole homestead to get me a government recognized residency. A pistol purchase is gunna be really expensive in SC for me. Buy-um in MO and carry with me is my "cheap" option.