Quick Question

[eye95]

Ah, you have a personal reason for enquiring.

Is the SC farm a residence? Do you plan on making a home there? Do you stay there? Simply owning property would not be enough.

However, if your SC farm is a true residence, get a SC hunting or fishing license using that address.

In an ironic twist, the proof of residence to get a hunting or fishing license in Ohio is far less than the proof required to buy a handgun. Yet the license is considered sufficient proof to purchase the handgun. Aren't our law writers geniuses?

 

[JustaShooter]

Would a property tax bill be sufficient for that purpose? Just thinking of the things I have / have to pay that are issued by the government...

 

[eye95]

Would a property tax bill be sufficient for that purpose? Just thinking of the things I have / have to pay that are issued by the government...

It would be. However, don't forget that the resident is certifying that that address is his residence. I can't tell from a tax bill (nor would I reasonably be required to tell) whether the person actually stays at that address with the intent of making a home. I am really just taking his word for it--as is the government. However, if he lies on the form, he is on the hook for the lie, not me.

Now, if he opens his yap, and admits that he is not being forthright on his form, I will stop the transaction cold, because I would then be on the hook, having "reason to believe..." Some folks have said things that have stopped transactions on a dime. I wouldn't encourage anyone to lie, but it ain't my job to ensure that they don't. I just apply the rules to what is presented to me.

 

[solus]

while summarily dismissing specific cites stating you seem to be are in violation of USC and GCA policy you continue to provide misinformation to the forum's participants about acceptable documentation to purchase a firearm without citing something which backs your expertise other to ad hoc telephonic conversations.

again the official documentation requirements for a nonlicensee to purchase a firearm IAW 478.11 as outlined in AFT's 5300, dtd 05, on page 37:

Identification document. A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi-governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

sorry, but i do not see anywhere in this definition where an electric bill would suffice to facility appropriate identification to the FFL!

when you provide egregious misinformation to forum members without any type of substantiated cites (except read the form), i am afraid i must speak up. it is not my contention to make it personal, if you believe that is the case then that falls to your own basic misgivings.

ipse

 

[eye95]

Yo, genius, check out where I say that AN ELECTRIC BILL CANNOT BE USED. Try reading.

I am involved in a useful discussion with another. If you want to have a useful discussion, let's. Otherwise, ****** ***.

 

[solus]

why are you upset w/me for challenging you when you can't seem to defend your own position with equitable cites thus supporting your contentions?

alas and as usual you're insisting on providing opinionated information w/o providing any type of cites to the readership except: download and look at the form...download and look at the form... block 13 you are not even assisting your position by pointing out specifics on the form by saying 'hey folks look at page 3 downward for specifics notices, instructions, and definitions on the form's question clarification'. nope you firmly believe you are being picked on and as well as feel when the buyers signs the form they are therefore held responsible for any misinformation.

I notice with interest you do not provide forum members any type of critical cites to or from the ATF reference book so they might assure your information is accurate or to be able to engage in a reasonable discussion about the subject.

fyi, and to clarify: military members must use their PCS location as their location for the residence on the ATF Form 4473. period! cite; GCA section 921(b) & ATF ruling 2001-5.

please if you wish to engage in a meaningful discourse on this subject quit your belly-aching you are being picked on and provide cites to the readership so they can enter into the discussion and make informed decisions on their own.

ipse

 

[eye95]

Engage like an adult, or I have moved on.

OCforMe is being quite adult, as usual. I will discuss with him or the conversation will just end.

 

[solus]

to the initial op, please forgive my diversion of your thread however there seemed to be misinformation being disseminated which could lead ppl astray.

enjoy your sojourn into open carry in the buckeye state...

Eye, as stated, I am acting as an adult following established protocols trying to engage in an exchange of information yet you seem once again to resort to your same modus operandi where you feel the need to state 'oh please I am being picked on so I don't want to play any more...'

again, instead of pouting, defend your position(s) as the subject matter expert you profess to be and enter into a meaningful dialogue on the subject.

ipse

 

[eye95]

There is no misinformation in this thread. If anyone would like to pose an adult query, I'll be happy to answer it. I just ain't gonna mess with someone trying to antagonize and misrepresent what I post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

 

[ShootinRugers]

There is no misinformation in this thread. If anyone would like to pose an adult query, I'll be happy to answer it. I just ain't gonna mess with someone trying to antagonize and misrepresent what I post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

I learned a few things, thanks everyone.

But eye95--I have one question: What type of photo ID do you use? Don't you have to have a Gov't issued ID, issued from the state you are buying a handgun in?

When I first retired from the Air Force my family stayed out west while I moved to Ohio. I still had a valid state issued ID from there. I would fly back every other month to see the family. I bought a couple old handguns without a problem; but when my ID expired they wouldn't allow me to purchase a handgun with my Ohio license even though I could prove I had a residence that I lived in.

I wasn't able to renew my ID because I couldn't prove I was spending 180 days a year there. This could be just a state law I'm not sure.

 

[Werz]

There is no misinformation in this thread. If anyone would like to pose an adult query, I'll be happy to answer it.

OK. Is maintaining this residential ambiguity the reason you won't obtain an Ohio concealed handgun license?

 

[eye95]

I learned a few things, thanks everyone.

But eye95--I have one question: What type of photo ID do you use? Don't you have to have a Gov't issued ID, issued from the state you are buying a handgun in?

When I first retired from the Air Force my family stayed out west while I moved to Ohio. I still had a valid state issued ID from there. I would fly back every other month to see the family. I bought a couple old handguns without a problem; but when my ID expired they wouldn't allow me to purchase a handgun with my Ohio license even though I could prove I had a residence that I lived in.

I wasn't able to renew my ID because I couldn't prove I was spending 180 days a year there. This could be just a state law I'm not sure.

It must be a government-issued document, one that is normally used for identification. It does not have to be issued by the State in which you are buying the gun. Hell, I used an Egyptian passport once! The instructions give a specific example about using a driver's license from one State to purchase in another.

An ID from another State usually won't prove your residence. (For military, it often does.) But, it can.

Some FFLs will be skiddish about two residences. They may not sell you a gun out of an abundance of caution and a lack of knowledge that the possibility is legal. Just get a document (government-issued) in your name with your out west address. That, combined with your retired military ID, ought to do the trick. As long as you and your family are still making a home out west, you can legally, and with a clear conscience, while you are staying there, claim "Out West" as your State of residence. Like I said, some FFLs will be skiddish. You may have to shop around. Exchange firearms counters routinely handle such transactions and have wide experience with accepting what the 4473 calls "alternate identification," so they shouldn't even flinch.

Pay not attention to the gentleman who is not knowledgeable of procedures vetted by our corporate lawyer.

 

[OC for ME]

Ah, you have a personal reason for enquiring.

Is the SC farm a residence? Do you plan on making a home there? Do you stay there? Simply owning property would not be enough.

However, if your SC farm is a true residence, get a SC hunting or fishing license using that address.

In an ironic twist, the proof of residence to get a hunting or fishing license in Ohio is far less than the proof required to buy a handgun. Yet the license is considered sufficient proof to purchase the handgun. Aren't our law writers geniuses?

My house, got it after my uncle passed. Turned it into an LLC, the farm, and we spend Thanksgiving there every year. I guess I would consider it a vacation home at this point in time.

Back in the day there was no county water, only well water. So, the county would be required to provide the house with water service, my name and the property address would be on the bill, and, if I understand correctly, the water department needs to be a government entity. What if the county contracts out the water service, if that makes a difference, a really economically depressed county in SC.

Please do not misunderstand my question(s), I am not asking you for a determination on the "governmentness" of the water department, but whether or not, in your opinion as a gun seller, a water bill issued by a "government contractor" would meet your on the spot concerns of the customer having the necessary documents to meet the requirements of completing the transaction. This may be a ATF needs to answer this question, question.

It seems that it will be far easier to purchase firearms in MO, rather than SC, until I move permanently back to SC and issued a SCDL.

 

[eye95]

OK. Is maintaining this residential ambiguity the reason you won't obtain an Ohio concealed handgun license?

Nope. Bone laziness. Just ain't got around to it. Did the course. Don't feel in any great rush to file what will be a monster background check. I hate having to get a license to be able to exercise a right, though, or I might be more motivated.

And I don't know if "ambiguity" is the right word. I just flat have two States of residence for the purposes of buying a handgun, a possibility actually built into the 4473 system and the law. The instructions even contain an example of dual residency not too dissimilar from my own.

For taxes, voting, my DL, and most other things, I am an OH resident. My wife is an AL resident. That creates a bit of a hassle at tax time. Last year's HR Block software sucked at handling that. They ended up making it free for me because of the hassle.

 

[OC for ME]

FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE - 2005 (don't know if this is the most current issue first one to pop up on a Google search)

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page, page 135 and 136.

 

[eye95]

My house, got it after my uncle passed. Turned it into an LLC, the farm, and we spend Thanksgiving there every year. I guess I would consider it a vacation home at this point in time.

Back in the day there was no county water, only well water. So, the county would be required to provide the house with water service, my name and the property address would be on the bill, and, if I understand correctly, the water department needs to be a government entity. What if the county contracts out the water service, if that makes a difference, a really economically depressed county in SC.

Please do not misunderstand my question(s), I am not asking you for a determination on the "governmentness" of the water department, but whether or not, in your opinion as a gun seller, a water bill issued by a "government contractor" would meet your on the spot concerns of the customer having the necessary documents to meet the requirements of completing the transaction. This may be a ATF needs to answer this question, question.

It seems that it will be far easier to purchase firearms in MO, rather than SC, until I move permanently back to SC and issued a SCDL.

Even a vacation home would be a residence. As long as you stay there with the intention of making a home.

If the bill is produced under that auspices of the government, i.e., if the government's name appeared on the heading of the bill, I'd take it. The contractor, acting on behalf of the government, to me, is no different than an employee acting on behalf of the government. Hell, I likely wouldn't even know that the bill did not come off a government-owned printer. However, it the government's name did not appear on the heading of the bill, i.e., the company itself was billing you, not just filling out the paper as an agent of the government, then no, I wouldn't take it.

 

[OC for ME]

Thanks. Knowledge is derived from learning.....even if you don't like what you learned. My Grand Pappy used to be able to buy a gun anywhere a gun was sold. He traveled quite a bit and used to bring back guns from his "farm related business trips." Cash was king, and "you look old enough to me" was all that was needed.

 

[eye95]

FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE - 2005 (don't know if this is the most current issue first one to pop up on a Google search)

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page, page 135 and 136.

I am not sure that is the most current, but I am not in my office, where I have the current copy. Folks clicking that link might also want to look at question B12. It addresses the possibility of having two residences. The key is being present, what I have called "staying," at the residence for the purpose of making a home.

When filling out the form, though, we refer to the instructions. Those instructions also address the possibility of having two residences.

 

[eye95]

Thanks. Knowledge is derived from learning.....even if you don't like what you learned. My Grand Pappy used to be able to buy a gun anywhere a gun was sold. He traveled quite a bit and used to bring back guns from his "farm related business trips." Cash was king, and "you look old enough to me" was all that was needed.

You mean back when we still had the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, not the privilege as controlled by the government?

I may fill out the 4473s and run the BCs, but I only do so to keep folks out of jail. They are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[OC for ME]

You mean back when we still had the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, not the privilege as controlled by the government?

<snip>

Yepper, that's it.

My Grand Pappy was going to buy a little 410 for a new grandchild and was POd that he had to show a ID and fill out a form. He was a wee bit behind the times cuz he hadn't bought a gun in many many years. He told the fella at the Ace Hardware store to piss-off. He went home, pissin and moanin and took a 410 off the wall, stuck a cheap stick-on bow on it and was done.....just not with the pissin and moanin regarding the sad state of affairs in this great country. I wish I had a audio recording of that one person R rated conversation......hi-larry-e-ous.