Tasers - An Electronics Tech's Opinion

WalkingWolf · Dec 24, 2013

Let's see~~hit in the face for no reason, and the attacker is still facing the victim. :lol: And Primus wants the victim to wait for a second or third strike to defend their life. Exactly the opposite of what he proposed in the Tueller drill thread.

He has the credibility of a vacuum cleaner.

Primus · Dec 24, 2013

solus said:
are you sure it's bad advice?

this is especially true with the media hyping up the 'knockout game' and said resulting consequences of being an involuntary player in the game! DEATH or serious bodily injury

my stance, IAW applicable NC statutes, is 'i feared for my life, or feared grave bodily injury' and i should have no problem convincing a person of reasonable firmness deadly force was necessary! it would be rather obvious i did not instigate the encounter, and as for excessive force being used, that would be determined by how difficult it was to stop the attack.

cite is DoJ CHP training material

ipse

I would say its bad advice. Does a punch put a reasonable person in fear of his life or serious bodily harm? A broken nose is not serious bodily harm nor is a black eye.

If that was your defense it would get shot down. Although I do agree that the "hype" about the knock out game would help. But it'd still be a bad idea.

Listen there a million ways to make it better or more in favor. Size or gender of victim/assailant, number of assailants, etc. I'm staying a generic everything is even 1 guy punching 1 guy in the face is NOT grounds to shoot. Your using deadly force in response to a simple a&b. In all likely hood with everything equal a single punch will do no more then ring your bell. Maybe. Again you can what if it to death and say "well what if mike Tyson punched my 18 year old 85 lb daughter? Then shed have a better standing. But still not a great one.

You guys have never been in a fist fight? Or punched in the face? From experience anyone is really thinking from said punch in the face you can kill someone?

But your right..... I'm the screwed up one....

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Dec 24, 2013

2011FBI statistics.

Homicides from rifles of any kind: 323
Homicides from handguns: 6,220
Homicides from knives: 1,694
Homicides from blunt objects: 496
Homicides from “personal weapons” (fists, feet, etc): 728

Fists and feet killed more than blunt objects, and rifles.

My opinion is a certain wannabe has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Primus · Dec 24, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
2011FBI statistics.

Homicides from rifles of any kind: 323
Homicides from handguns: 6,220
Homicides from knives: 1,694
Homicides from blunt objects: 496
Homicides from “personal weapons” (fists, feet, etc): 728

Fists and feet killed more than blunt objects, and rifles.

My opinion is a certain wannabe has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Ok walking wolf I'll play your game. Out of those 728 were a single punch to the face? Since that's the EXACT thing we are talking about.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

EMNofSeattle · Dec 24, 2013

Primus said:
Ok walking wolf I'll play your game. Out of those 728 were a single punch to the face? Since that's the EXACT thing we are talking about.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

it doesn't matter, blunt force trauma to the head is medically documented to cause death.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/soccer-referees-death-shows-how-dangerous-head-blows-can-be/

^^ this is just one story.

a surgeon in england was killed with a single punch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...punch-tells-inquest-It-was-self-defence..html

and another.....

http://www.examiner.com/article/can-you-be-killed-by-a-punch-to-the-head

even slate, a liberal source, published an article about how deadly blows to the head can be during the Zimmerman trial

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._life_how_deadly_is_an_unarmed_teenager_.html

punches can cause injuries, either from the punch itself, or from falling to the ground, and there's no guarantee an attacker will stop after one punch. other "unarmed blows" that can cause death, an upward blow to the nose can drive cartilage into the brain causing death (they even teach that in karate, and certain techniques in karate and some of the chinese martial arts are praticed for that purpose)

an "unarmed" attacker is very dangerous, and this is just what i can find from a google search.

WalkingWolf · Dec 24, 2013

It does not matter whether it was single or not! But there are several cases of a single punch. What is important that you seem to miss, not surprised, is that MORE homicides are attributed to hands and feet than blunt objects. I don't know anybody with a right mind that thinks a blunt object is not a reasonable threat. And I don't know of any attacker that hands a piece of paper to the victim they are only going to punch them once.

I don't know how old you are, but it is clear you are not a cop. If you are, I pity the dept, the citizens, and the people that you clearly have no clue about.

How many knockout attacks that the attacker told the victim before the attack they would only be hit once?

There have been seven recent cases in New York City alone. And the game has turned fatal in at least four documented attacks -- in Syracuse, N.Y.; St. Louis; Chicago; and Hoboken, N.J., site of the latest fatal attack.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/deadly-knockout-game-what-it-is/

Primus · Dec 24, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
it doesn't matter, blunt force trauma to the head is medically documented to cause death.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/soccer-referees-death-shows-how-dangerous-head-blows-can-be/

^^ this is just one story.

a surgeon in england was killed with a single punch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...punch-tells-inquest-It-was-self-defence..html

and another.....

http://www.examiner.com/article/can-you-be-killed-by-a-punch-to-the-head

even slate, a liberal source, published an article about how deadly blows to the head can be during the Zimmerman trial

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._life_how_deadly_is_an_unarmed_teenager_.html

punches can cause injuries, either from the punch itself, or from falling to the ground, and there's no guarantee an attacker will stop after one punch. other "unarmed blows" that can cause death, an upward blow to the nose can drive cartilage into the brain causing death (they even teach that in karate, and certain techniques in karate and some of the chinese martial arts are praticed for that purpose)

an "unarmed" attacker is very dangerous, and this is just what i can find from a google search.

Emn I'd say it matters when it comes to using deadly force in return. I agree whole heatedly that a punch CAN cause death. I really do and I concede that.

The statement someone else made was that if someone punched them one time they would use deadly force. That's it no more no less. I personally believe that would not work in court. As I said if everything is the same and proportionate. I'm open to cites or examples of a male getting punched once (not beat repeatedly in a struggle) and then shooting them. I'm stating my opinion here.

I know its fact that punches can kill.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Dec 24, 2013

Primus said:
Emn I'd say it matters when it comes to using deadly force in return. I agree whole heatedly that a punch CAN cause death. I really do and I concede that.

The statement someone else made was that if someone punched them one time they would use deadly force. That's it no more no less. I personally believe that would not work in court. As I said if everything is the same and proportionate. I'm open to cites or examples of a male getting punched once (not beat repeatedly in a struggle) and then shooting them. I'm stating my opinion here.

I know its fact that punches can kill.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

I would shoot or use any force necessary if someone even attempted to punch me! Your opinion is about as valuable as monopoly currency.

EMNofSeattle · Dec 24, 2013

Primus said:
Emn I'd say it matters when it comes to using deadly force in return. I agree whole heatedly that a punch CAN cause death. I really do and I concede that.

The statement someone else made was that if someone punched them one time they would use deadly force. That's it no more no less. I personally believe that would not work in court. As I said if everything is the same and proportionate. I'm open to cites or examples of a male getting punched once (not beat repeatedly in a struggle) and then shooting them. I'm stating my opinion here.

I know its fact that punches can kill.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

well no one would tabulate such an incident, it would be described as either manslaughter or self defense from a criminal assault.

I don't know how it works in whatever state you live in, the law that will apply to me if god forbid i ever kill someone in self defense reads

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

great personal injury, as understood by Washington courts, is an assault rising to the level of homicide or mayhem (a now repealed offense specifically about maiming someone)

a strike to the head is a level of force that will equal great personal injury. if an individual does successfully punch me once and i am in a position to grab my firearm and they're in a position to or threatening to attack me further i can reasonably assume they plan to continue their assault. if they attempt to punch and i avoid and prepare to draw and they come to attack me again then I can assume they're planning more then your average run of the mill assault. striking the head with force is not "simple assault" simple assault is assault with potential for minor injuries, restraining someone against their will, mutual combat, etc. a sudden attack targetting important areas of the body with surprise or speed is felony assault.

solus · Dec 24, 2013

Primus said:
I would say its bad advice. Does a punch put a reasonable person in fear of his life or serious bodily harm? A broken nose is not serious bodily harm nor is a black eye.

If that was your defense it would get shot down. Although I do agree that the "hype" about the knock out game would help. But it'd still be a bad idea.

Listen there a million ways to make it better or more in favor. Size or gender of victim/assailant, number of assailants, etc. I'm staying a generic everything is even 1 guy punching 1 guy in the face is NOT grounds to shoot. Your using deadly force in response to a simple a&b. In all likely hood with everything equal a single punch will do no more then ring your bell. Maybe. Again you can what if it to death and say "well what if mike Tyson punched my 18 year old 85 lb daughter? Then shed have a better standing. But still not a great one.

You guys have never been in a fist fight? Or punched in the face? From experience anyone is really thinking from said punch in the face you can kill someone?

But your right..... I'm the screwed up one....

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

sorry but you have failed to retain information about me.

two, you apparently are not familiar with NC definition bodily injury constraints.

three, you are not recognizing my rights under NC statutes to use deadly force when i am faced with situations of my perception where i am about to receive serious bodily injury, or death.

four, w/the media hype,

conclusion, i do not believe i would have any problem appropriately defending myself from external harm and trust me i would not wait to see it there is one attacker or several hooligans bent on their erroneous behaviour against me.

you sir live in a world where you have begun to believe your own invincibility which is predicated on your youth and those immortality illusions.

ipse

Grapeshot · Dec 24, 2013

This thread is an interesting one with some well thought out posts, but the insults and personal attacks need to stop.

We should all be above that and it lends no credibility to a reply.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 25, 2013

Primus said:
I tried replacing taser with fist.... didn't worn so well. "If I was walking home from work and someone pulled a fist they would get shot". You proving my point.

Listen no matter how you look at it a fist is not a taser. Taser is more incapacitating then a fist. Period. Its more effective or distance and just general effectiveness. I'm not even sure what your arguing for right now. I feel like your arguing for the heck of it.

You stated if someone punched you, you would shoot them. I said that's bad all day. So then you equated a fist to taser meaning "if its good for a taser its good for punch". A taser is not a punch or remotely close.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

LOL...you are too amusing and very dishonest.

First I said clenched fist and it does work.

You are the one that compared the lethality of Tazers to fists and then now are trying to uncompare it......

sudden valley gunner · Dec 25, 2013

EMNofSeattle said:
well no one would tabulate such an incident, it would be described as either manslaughter or self defense from a criminal assault.

I don't know how it works in whatever state you live in, the law that will apply to me if god forbid i ever kill someone in self defense reads

great personal injury, as understood by Washington courts, is an assault rising to the level of homicide or mayhem (a now repealed offense specifically about maiming someone)

a strike to the head is a level of force that will equal great personal injury. if an individual does successfully punch me once and i am in a position to grab my firearm and they're in a position to or threatening to attack me further i can reasonably assume they plan to continue their assault. if they attempt to punch and i avoid and prepare to draw and they come to attack me again then I can assume they're planning more then your average run of the mill assault. striking the head with force is not "simple assault" simple assault is assault with potential for minor injuries, restraining someone against their will, mutual combat, etc. a sudden attack targetting important areas of the body with surprise or speed is felony assault.

+1 I was going to pull the RCW's out, but was having too much fun watching Primus try to twist out of his own words.

Primus · Dec 25, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
LOL...you are too amusing and very dishonest.

First I said clenched fist and it does work.

You are the one that compared the lethality of Tazers to fists and then now are trying to uncompare it......

? Read the posts I was contrasting fists and tasers. Telling you that they are not the same and you can't use the same use of force for both..

Ok inserted clenched fist instead of fist. Doesn't work.

There's nothing "dishonest" here. NO reason to be "dishonest". I'm trying to stop guys from thinking "next time a guy clenches his fist at me o can shoot him" or if he swings at you at a bar you can drop him.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

sudden valley gunner · Dec 25, 2013

Primus said:
? Read the posts I was contrasting fists and tasers. Telling you that they are not the same and you can't use the same use of force for both..

Ok inserted clenched fist instead of fist. Doesn't work.

There's nothing "dishonest" here. NO reason to be "dishonest". I'm trying to stop guys from thinking "next time a guy clenches his fist at me o can shoot him" or if he swings at you at a bar you can drop him.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Nice try.....

, do they train you to do that?

I never said when a guy clenches his fist at me did I.......dishonest or obtuse?

Primus · Dec 25, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
Nice try....., do they train you to do that?

I never said when a guy clenches his fist at me did I.......dishonest or obtuse?

Well you said replace taser with clenched fist right? Well the example I gave is someone coming at a person with a taser in their hand then you'd be more justified in shooting because the taser can incapacitate better then a fist. Well if you replace taser with fist it means you want me to say that its ok to shoot someone who is coming at you with a fist (not taser). So either you can't replace taser with fist or you think its ok to shoot someone for "brandishing" or threatening with a fist (it would be if it was a taser).

I'm neither stupid nor dishonest. I'm paying attention to detail. Maybe you didn't read my whole example before you said replace fist with taser? Implying that taser and clenched fist are same?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

WalkingWolf · Dec 25, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
Nice try....., do they train you to do that?

I never said when a guy clenches his fist at me did I.......dishonest or obtuse?

I did! He is one or the other! We have discussed this with USER numerous times, you either have justification for deadly force or you don't. Primus is just selling a bushel of rotten apples. He either knows it, or has not the sense to look.

It appears the bulk of the board is too smart to buy rotten apples.

A baseball bat and a taser are not the same, but fists have killed more than both.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 25, 2013

Primus said:
Well you said replace taser with clenched fist right? Well the example I gave is someone coming at a person with a taser in their hand then you'd be more justified in shooting because the taser can incapacitate better then a fist. Well if you replace taser with fist it means you want me to say that its ok to shoot someone who is coming at you with a fist (not taser). So either you can't replace taser with fist or you think its ok to shoot someone for "brandishing" or threatening with a fist (it would be if it was a taser).

I'm neither stupid nor dishonest. I'm paying attention to detail. Maybe you didn't read my whole example before you said replace fist with taser? Implying that taser and clenched fist are same?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

I did read it and you continue to change what was said to try to win.

You then pulled one sentence out of context from what you wrote. So you are being what?

WalkingWolf said:
I did! He is one or the other! We have discussed this with USER numerous times, you either have justification for deadly force or you don't. Primus is just selling a bushel of rotten apples. He either knows it, or has not the sense to look.

It appears the bulk of the board is too smart to buy rotten apples.

A baseball bat and a taser are not the same, but fists have killed more than both.

He keeps putting himself in a corner that he can't back out of, so he must go on the attack instead. I used his own arguments against him but now somehow those weren't his arguments.

It matters not to me if someone is trying to incapacitate someone with a tazer or a fist as you brought out you either have the justification or you don't.

sudden valley gunner · Dec 25, 2013

"You see my fists?" Ramos asks Thomas. "They're getting ready to **** you up."

Officer Ramos says this to Fullerton who died from these fists. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/kelly-thomas-beating-video_n_1499771.html

FBI witness testifies that Fullerton had the right to defend himself, I would say if was armed he would have the right to shoot these agressors.

http://www.dailypaul.com/307564/fbi...as-had-right-to-defend-himself-against-police

BLKH2O · Dec 25, 2013

Well, Peace on Earth is obviously still on the back burner, at least for today.

Tasers - An Electronics Tech's Opinion

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member