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Thread: Lawsuit: detained for openly carrying pistol

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Lawsuit: detained for openly carrying pistol

    Last edited by Raggs; 01-12-2014 at 06:59 PM.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Some of these cases make me wish the punishment fit the crime. Calculating a fair punishment in this case is as simple as asking yourself what would the police have done if he had drawn on them instead of the other way around, and the obvious answer is also a fair and proper one. So why the double standard?

    The ironic thing is that half assed thugs with badges commit felonies in claiming to insure that good people are not felons. 600 grand is not enough. A price cannot be put on endangering someones life, and that goes double when it's a sworn public servant.
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-21-2013 at 10:48 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Some of these cases make me wish the punishment fit the crime. Calculating a fair punishment in this case is as simple as asking yourself what would the police have done if he had drawn on them instead of the other way around, and the obvious answer is also a fair and proper one. So why the double standard?

    The ironic thing is that half assed thugs with badges commit felonies in claiming to insure that good people are not felons. 600 grand is not enough. A price cannot be put on endangering someones life, and that goes double when it's a sworn public servant.
    Quoted for truth! I hear you brother. +1:thumbup:
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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    I only hope the plaintiff takes it to the end and gets an actual finding of fault and judgement against the criminals. Too often these things are settled out of court and the bad guys get away with not admitting any wrongdoing in exchange for hush money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    I only hope the plaintiff takes it to the end and gets an actual finding of fault and judgement against the criminals. Too often these things are settled out of court and the bad guys get away with not admitting any wrongdoing in exchange for hush money.
    While literally true that such a settlement avoids admission of wrongdoing, pretty much anybody paying attention knows there was wrongdoing. An admission doesn't accomplish much. The admitters know what they did.

    The tasty part is that while the recipient of the settlement is often prohibited from revealing the details by the terms of the settlement, some parts are accessible by way of FOIA/Sunshine/Open Records request.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Until the law recognizes that citizens should not have to hand over their arms, without resistance, that they possess for their protection against the gov't, will the gov't come to the conclusion that harassing LACs is not in their best interest.

    We should be pushing for laws to allow for citizens to be able to resist unlawful detentions and such harassment..

    If such laws are passed, these incidents will go down to zero ...

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    McBeth, I agree in principle, but in practicality, advocating resisting puts people in more danger. Not only the person being detained, but bystanders as well. Lets face it, most cops cant shoot worth a damn. I refer to the incident where the NYPD shot bystanders and never actually hit the suspect, and where they wounded nine civilians while trying to gun down one suspect. What really needs to be done is legislation concerning the implementation of stiffer penalties for sworn law enforcement officers who violate State statutes as well as constitutional law.

    Here's the NYC things:
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/2815851/

    Unreal... and yet we law abiding citizens are the threat. Go figure.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    There is no law against self defense against felon cops in most jurisdictions, and the scotus mentioned that it could be done legally, though yes shooting it out with a cop who at that moment deserves to die is a fairly certainly suicidal move, and no, that wouldn't change with stronger laws encouraging the practice, but yes, if it happened frequently the abuse levels might change, but more likely all that would happen is that the media would slander people who defended themselves and things would get worse. Many of us here in years past have routinely had the legal right to defend ourselves against cops with deadly force, that doesn't make it smart, unless there is someone nuts enough to start severely beating or shooting people, and I can't recall any instance of that in regards to OCing, other than I seem to recall one example in Philadelphia.
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-22-2013 at 10:55 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Until the law recognizes that citizens should not have to hand over their arms, without resistance, that they possess for their protection against the gov't, will the gov't come to the conclusion that harassing LACs is not in their best interest.

    We should be pushing for laws to allow for citizens to be able to resist unlawful detentions and such harassment..

    If such laws are passed, these incidents will go down to zero ...
    It's already legal to resist unlawful arrest. The problem is knowing/proving it was unlawful. Detained is an arrest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    It's already legal to resist unlawful arrest. The problem is knowing/proving it was unlawful. Detained is an arrest.
    Not in my state ... its illegal to resist

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Not in my state ... its illegal to resist
    For some reason I thought you were in Michigan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Your confusion is understandable, since he posts in every forum and on every subject.
    Nope. I was thinking of a different David.

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    So what are the odds of a settlement vs legal precedent? I'd rather see a court opinion favorable to the plaintiff but that will take time. Municipalities are quick to make settlements.

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    A newly created user called "CityAttorney" has started posting in the comments and has attacked me. HA!

    CityAttorney:
    How does Mr. Lambert, who lives and works in the City of Kentwood, know what kind of handgun Mr. Deffert, who lives in the City of Grand Rapids, was carrying at the time?
    Tom Lambert:
    If this is the level of investigatory prowess Mr. Deffert will be up against, he should be able to sleep a little better.

    I do not work in the city of Kentwood, sorry. If you do a little more reading you will see that I personally know Mr. Deffert.

    Just as my city of residence does not preclude me from being affected by the preempted ordinances of Grand Rapids, my place of residence also does not preclude me from knowing and interacting with residents of Grand Rapids.

    Is it really wise for you to be posting here, let alone attacking individuals? Is that what taxpayers are paying for? Of course, assuming you really are who you say you are.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...91-48-381.html

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    A newly created user called "CityAttorney" has started posting in the comments and has attacked me. HA!




    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...91-48-381.html
    She's now posting your work address; I can't seem to report her post, or counter post from work....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    I've already reported the user and taken a screen shot. IP info will be kept by Mlive.

    If this user really is from the city and should the city ever try to come after me, Johann's case will look like peanuts.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    A newly created user called "CityAttorney" has started posting in the comments and has attacked me. HA!

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...91-48-381.html
    I would hope that the City Attorney would not get involved in the argument on MLive and really doubt they would.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Submit a FOIA request to see all browser histories of all the lawyers....

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    While literally true that such a settlement avoids admission of wrongdoing, pretty much anybody paying attention knows there was wrongdoing. An admission doesn't accomplish much. The admitters know what they did.

    The tasty part is that while the recipient of the settlement is often prohibited from revealing the details by the terms of the settlement, some parts are accessible by way of FOIA/Sunshine/Open Records request.
    This can only happen if the Plaintiff agrees to a prohibition of public revealation on his part! I Didn't! This IS Deja Vu for Steve and Me! Just change names and it's just another (technicaly according to law) "Armed Robbery" by "Ignorant/of law" LEO! If He has the money/lawyer fees to take it all the way, it may go before a jury and the "Cost" of the Violation may be realized! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    It's already legal to resist unlawful arrest. The problem is knowing/proving it was unlawful. Detained is an arrest.
    True! But Us Poor Folk DO NOT have the cash to Fight those using Our Cash/Taxes to defend violators!! FACT!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    True! But Us Poor Folk DO NOT have the cash to Fight those using Our Cash/Taxes to defend violators!! FACT!
    BTW, thank you. Your experience is making it easier for everyone coming after you. I know the plaintiff, and myself and others are standing by him to see this through.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  24. #24
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    BTW, thank you. Your experience is making it easier for everyone coming after you. I know the plaintiff, and myself and others are standing by him to see this through.
    Precedent = Template = Step Forward = Goal/Freedom Restored! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Went back and reviewed the first few moments of Officer Moe's approach to the plaintiff. Nothing suspicious there, just a fellow walking down the sidewalk, heading east ACROSS the street from the church. Officer Moe was eastbound from Fuller, not running lights or siren, driving at a normal rate of speed, and caught up to the plaintiff near Lakeside Dr. Without waiting for backup, Officer Moe immediately draws his weapon, leaves the safety of the cover provided by his vehicle, and slowly walks down the middle of the street, fully exposing himself to any possible attack. Not exactly the actions of a man confronting a dangerous subject. Hmmmmm....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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