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Thread: What did we do wrong?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dynamike's Avatar
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    What did we do wrong?

    Picture three type of citizens in our state:

    1. The Winners. The good citizens who follow the law and open carry.

    2. The Spectators. The average citizens who are sometimes worried about open carry.

    3. The Losers. The individuals who travel around to commit crimes.

    Why are the Spectators wanting to take away the open carry law? They should feel just as much comfortable when we are around. We want to help, not hurt. Can anybody please explain to me what we did wrong? I just don't get it.

  2. #2
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    They have been brainwashed by EVIL people.
    They are incapable of original thinking.
    They are stupid and they vote.
    They are mentally defective and they vote.

    Take your choice, as many as you want.
    There are many more reasons, but I didn't feel like a book.
    Perhaps if you would use a real computer you wouldn't have to apologize for not being able to do so many things on the internet!

  3. #3
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeper1 View Post
    They have been brainwashed by EVIL people.
    They are incapable of original thinking.
    They are stupid and they vote.
    They are mentally defective and they vote.

    Take your choice, as many as you want.
    There are many more reasons, but I didn't feel like a book.
    Or maybe they go online to a open carry forum and read that people who open carry think they are defective? Or then go into other threads and see guys on same threads wanting to get rid of police or the entire government.

    I think people don't even notice it when they are out and about. Just peruse the open carry experience s threads. A vast majority of the encounters go "walked around no one noticed.". But people do notice the very vocal guys who advocate other things but also happen to open carry.

    Alex Jones comes to mind. He advocated for gun rights and is on our side. Yet he jumps on CNN and makes himself look insane. He feeds right into the liberal biased people. That then makes us look bad.

    This is not meant as a slight to anyone or anything. Just an observation. We cannot control who represents us. We can only represent ourselves each and every time we carry and hope people remember US being kind courteous and respectful, not the raving lunatics that may lurk amongst us. Hope they remember they saw us walking around being safe and they just heard there was a gun man killing people somewhere else.

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  4. #4
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post

    ~SNIPPED DUE TO RISK OF SPREADING BRAIN CANCER~

    This is not meant as a slight to anyone or anything. Just an observation. We cannot control who represents us. We can only represent ourselves each and every time we carry and hope people remember US being kind courteous and respectful, not the raving lunatics that may lurk amongst us. Hope they remember they saw us walking around being safe and they just heard there was a gun man killing people somewhere else.

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    What's with the "us" and "we"? You don't open carry nor do you support it now, do you?

    I seriously doubt anyone here views you as a representative of open carry, or a spokesman for the activity. You are an antagonist. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 12-23-2013 at 06:04 PM.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  5. #5
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    You don't have to do anything wrong for people to hate you. In fact, one might argue that the more good you do, the more people and the more those people will hate you.
    Advocate freedom please

  6. #6
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Or maybe they go online to a open carry forum and read that people who open carry think they are defective? Or then go into other threads and see guys on same threads wanting to get rid of police or the entire government.

    I think people don't even notice it when they are out and about. Just peruse the open carry experience s threads. A vast majority of the encounters go "walked around no one noticed.". But people do notice the very vocal guys who advocate other things but also happen to open carry.

    Alex Jones comes to mind. He advocated for gun rights and is on our side. Yet he jumps on CNN and makes himself look insane. He feeds right into the liberal biased people. That then makes us look bad.

    This is not meant as a slight to anyone or anything. Just an observation. We cannot control who represents us. We can only represent ourselves each and every time we carry and hope people remember US being kind courteous and respectful, not the raving lunatics that may lurk amongst us. Hope they remember they saw us walking around being safe and they just heard there was a gun man killing people somewhere else.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Oh my gosh, I hope you are referring to me

    If so, I think that's my first time being called a raving lunatic. I'm kind of excited about it.
    Advocate freedom please

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamike View Post
    Picture three type of citizens in our state:

    1. The Winners. The good citizens who follow the law and open carry.

    2. The Spectators. The average citizens who are sometimes worried about open carry.

    3. The Losers. The individuals who travel around to commit crimes.

    Why are the Spectators wanting to take away the open carry law? They should feel just as much comfortable when we are around. We want to help, not hurt. Can anybody please explain to me what we did wrong? I just don't get it.
    What state are you referring to? There are over a dozen states with a Wayne County. Knowing the state might clarify a few things like current politics, recent crime, reasons open carry is under fire.

    If you are referring to a national movement to ban open carry, I think you might want to review recent legislation and pending legislation regarding gains towards recognizing the right to open carry. I see open carry gaining ground rather than losing, especially where Constitutional Carry is on the table.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Oh my gosh, I hope you are referring to me

    If so, I think that's my first time being called a raving lunatic. I'm kind of excited about it.
    It appears to be a lame attempt at pressuring towards attitude compliance through shaming participants that disagree with statist views.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dynamike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    What state are you referring to?
    The Great Lake State.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamike View Post
    Picture three type of citizens in our state:

    1. The Winners. The good citizens who follow the law and open carry.

    2. The Spectators. The average citizens who are sometimes worried about open carry.

    3. The Losers. The individuals who travel around to commit crimes.

    Why are the Spectators wanting to take away the open carry law? They should feel just as much comfortable when we are around. We want to help, not hurt. Can anybody please explain to me what we did wrong? I just don't get it.
    This would also include the "FUDDS", "casual" firearm owners who typically only owns guns for hunting or shotgun sports and do not truly believe in the true premise of the second amendment.
    They are truly Hoplaphobic regarding an open carried firearm.

    You figure out how someone can conclude that you should hide your firearm to protect your right to have a firearm, and you'll have a better understanding of the mentality of some of the opposition. And a large number of those "worried" about open carry are also anti-gun, and nothing short of a nationwide smelter fest fed with our firearms will bring them comfort. "Winning them over"? Unlikely. Win the confidence of the undecided through naturalizing the activity could be our best bet in gaining further support.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  11. #11
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    Is this thread in the right subforum? I can't figure out why the OPer thinks there is a threat to OC. Does he live in a state where an anti-OC bill is being pushed?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    What's with the "us" and "we"? You don't open carry nor do you support it now, do you?

    I seriously doubt anyone here views you as a representative of open carry, or a spokesman for the activity. You are an antagonist. Nothing more, nothing less.
    I do to both. I open carry to and from range normally and to or from work. All of those times I'm.not in uniform nor do I show any kind of badge. Just be being Joe citizen going to range to shoot with my gun. I will make a few stops here or there as needed. Usually fuel. I do not go out of my way open carrying such as stores or dinner. I support open carry like I support all firearms ownership. We should be able to if we want to.

    Your bashing is proving my point. Your attack is dividing oc vs. Cc. You did this in this thread not me.

    I was pointing out that guys who open carry and spout that sandy hook was done by the CIA tends to turn main stream humans off. I think most guys got my drift.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamike View Post
    Picture three type of citizens in our state:

    1. The Winners. The good citizens who follow the law and open carry.

    2. The Spectators. The average citizens who are sometimes worried about open carry.

    3. The Losers. The individuals who travel around to commit crimes.

    Why are the Spectators wanting to take away the open carry law? They should feel just as much comfortable when we are around. We want to help, not hurt. Can anybody please explain to me what we did wrong? I just don't get it.
    Most spectators are not trying to take away OC. I have experienced a lot more support. The only real hassle I have is a small minority and the local yokels who don't like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    What's with the "us" and "we"? You don't open carry nor do you support it now, do you?

    I seriously doubt anyone here views you as a representative of open carry, or a spokesman for the activity. You are an antagonist. Nothing more, nothing less.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    You don't have to do anything wrong for people to hate you. In fact, one might argue that the more good you do, the more people and the more those people will hate you.
    +1, spout truth and you will be called a right wing fascist by the fake left and a progressive democrat from the fake right.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
    Regular Member mdak06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamike View Post
    Picture three type of citizens in our state:

    1. The Winners. The good citizens who follow the law and open carry.

    2. The Spectators. The average citizens who are sometimes worried about open carry.

    3. The Losers. The individuals who travel around to commit crimes.

    Why are the Spectators wanting to take away the open carry law? They should feel just as much comfortable when we are around. We want to help, not hurt. Can anybody please explain to me what we did wrong? I just don't get it.
    This is what comes to mind:

    (1) The media (both news and entertainment) and anti-gun organizations have effectively brainwashed people into thinking that guns are an accident waiting to happen, that gun owners are "loose cannons" looking to shoot someone, that arguments between people will escalate into someone getting shot and killed, etc.

    (2) A small, but very visible, portion of those who open carry are "in your face" types, who (intentionally or not) scare people because they are perceived as too aggressive and/or confrontational.

    (3) Some of those who are unfamiliar with guns fear them (this is somewhat directly related to point #1) ... and while yes, open carry folks do provide additional safety and security for everyone, the spectator's fear of the unknown, supported by the disinformation of the anti-gun crowd, makes them wary of OC.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I do to both. I open carry to and from range normally and to or from work. All of those times I'm.not in uniform nor do I show any kind of badge. Just be being Joe citizen going to range to shoot with my gun. I will make a few stops here or there as needed. Usually fuel. I do not go out of my way open carrying such as stores or dinner. I support open carry like I support all firearms ownership. We should be able to if we want to.

    Your bashing is proving my point. Your attack is dividing oc vs. Cc. You did this in this thread not me.

    I was pointing out that guys who open carry and spout that sandy hook was done by the CIA tends to turn main stream humans off. I think most guys got my drift.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

    And you don't think anyone is turned off by your complicit statism and jingoism?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Snipped
    Your attack is dividing oc vs. Cc. You did this in this thread not me.



    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I made no inference or reference to concealed carry. Again with the lame ass Straw Man. I confronted you on your lies and hypocrisy. One of your first 10 posts stated you did not open carry, nor did you support it. You even mentioned it could cause problems with your job.

    Now, we are to believe it is common practice for you, that you are a seasoned open carry advocate and practitioner.

    I do not believe much of anything you post.
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 12-23-2013 at 08:45 PM.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  17. #17
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Metal hat required

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I do to both. I open carry to and from range normally and to or from work. All of those times I'm.not in uniform nor do I show any kind of badge. Just be being Joe citizen going to range to shoot with my gun. I will make a few stops here or there as needed. Usually fuel. I do not go out of my way open carrying such as stores or dinner. I support open carry like I support all firearms ownership. We should be able to if we want to.

    Your bashing is proving my point. Your attack is dividing oc vs. Cc. You did this in this thread not me.

    I was pointing out that guys who open carry and spout that sandy hook was done by the CIA tends to turn main stream humans off. I think most guys got my drift.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It would appear Alex Jones is on the same side of the fence as you and I. Alex has his way and I have mine, we disagree on a lot of things yet the basis of the arguments are the same.

    Are you a terrorist or a freedom fighter? (rhetorically speaking, not intended as interrogative)

    The differences in answers are mostly philosophic.


    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    I made no inference or reference to concealed carry. Again with the lame ass Straw Man. I confronted you on your lies and hypocrisy. One of your first 10 posts stated you did not open carry, nor did you support it. You even mentioned it could cause problems with your job.

    Now, we are to believe it is common practice for you, that you are a seasoned open carry advocate and practitioner.

    I do not believe much of anything you post.
    And my recent post confirms that. I explained I o my of to and from range and to and from work. Those are times I'm in regular clothes and my gun is being openly carried. I specified I don't carry openly when going other places. I was very upfront in that regard.

    I was also open that I said I support open carry in that you should be able to if you want.

    You have an idis my friend with twisting and seeing things you want to.

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  19. #19
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    And you don't think anyone is turned off by your complicit statism and jingoism?
    Is statism a bad thing? Your using like an insult. Every person who believes there should be a government no matter how small they want it to be is a statist. So I guess we are evil?

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  20. #20
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdak06 View Post
    This is what comes to mind:

    (1) The media (both news and entertainment) and anti-gun organizations have effectively brainwashed people into thinking that guns are an accident waiting to happen, that gun owners are "loose cannons" looking to shoot someone, that arguments between people will escalate into someone getting shot and killed, etc.

    (2) A small, but very visible, portion of those who open carry are "in your face" types, who (intentionally or not) scare people because they are perceived as too aggressive and/or confrontational.

    (3) Some of those who are unfamiliar with guns fear them (this is somewhat directly related to point #1) ... and while yes, open carry folks do provide additional safety and security for everyone, the spectator's fear of the unknown, supported by the disinformation of the anti-gun crowd, makes them wary of OC.
    2. Is exactly what I was referring to. You put it better then I did I guess. Those are the guys that the media quotes and twists against US. Those are the guys they purposely find and post on TV . Like Alex Jones.

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  21. #21
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    2. Is exactly what I was referring to. You put it better then I did I guess. Those are the guys that the media quotes and twists against US. Those are the guys they purposely find and post on TV . Like Alex Jones.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    As if Alex Jones represents the open carry movement? No, no matter how much he supports it. Even in this case, where one might say he "falsely represents" open carry, it's still the ******* ignorance of the opposition, willful or otherwise (not addressing the purely evil), that is ultimately the reason they oppose us, not because of something Alex Jones did or said! So many are just looking for a reason to 'prove' their emotional, ration-less response correct. They WILL find someone and some excuse, not matter how much "false representation" you squelch.

    No one person represents the open carry "movement." If there was any legitimate opposition to the open carry movement it would apply to the movement itself, not some wildcard individual who happens to support the movement.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 12-23-2013 at 09:22 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It would appear Alex Jones is on the same side of the fence as you and I. Alex has his way and I have mine, we disagree on a lot of things yet the basis of the arguments are the same.

    Are you a terrorist or a freedom fighter? (rhetorically speaking, not intended as interrogative)

    The differences in answers are mostly philosophic.


    ~Whitney
    I don't like Alex Jones, I don't watch him, I much rather have him on my side than a boot licker, government does no wrong guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Is statism a bad thing? Your using like an insult. Every person who believes there should be a government no matter how small they want it to be is a statist. So I guess we are evil?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Statism is a bad thing. It has been explained to you before, if you would just "listen" that not every person who believes there should be a government no matter how small is a statist. A statist puts the state above individual liberties. A statist puts government rules above natural law and freedom, a statist believes that people living in and from a geographical region are consenting to an intrusive government because they don't leave their homes?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
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    Statism is a bad thing. As the term is often bandied about here, it is nothing.

    To some here, if you are not an anarcho-libertarian, you are a statist. Meh. Their assessment is so flawed as to be laughable.

  24. #24
    Regular Member mdak06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I do to both. I open carry to and from range normally and to or from work. All of those times I'm.not in uniform nor do I show any kind of badge. Just be being Joe citizen going to range to shoot with my gun. I will make a few stops here or there as needed. Usually fuel. I do not go out of my way open carrying such as stores or dinner. I support open carry like I support all firearms ownership. We should be able to if we want to.

    <snip>
    Primus, if you open carry, I do not understand why you decline to open carry to "stores and dinner" while you are out and about. That doesn't make any sense to me. Open carrying while shopping and eating out helps to serve as an example of what open carry is - doing normal stuff while visibly armed.

    The way to counter the misconception that some persons have of open carry is to show that their impression is wrong, not to hide from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    As if Alex Jones represents the open carry movement? No, no matter how much he supports it. Even in this case, where one might say he "falsely represents" open carry, it's still the ******* ignorance of the opposition, willful or otherwise (not addressing the purely evil), that is ultimately the reason they oppose us, not because of something Alex Jones did or said! So many are just looking for a reason to 'prove' their emotional, ration-less response correct. They WILL find someone and some excuse, not matter how much "false representation" you squelch.

    No one person represents the open carry "movement." If there was any legitimate opposition to the open carry movement it would apply to the movement itself, not some wildcard individual who happens to support the movement.
    True. The ignorance of the opposition (brought on in part by a slanted media) is the problem, not the few "wildcards" that may be a bit overaggressive. This ignorance is partially because of too much of the media declares that "bad guys with guns" make national news, and "good guys with guns" only make the local news. But we can help to counter their misconceptions.

    And ... for every "in your face" Alex Jones there are plenty of "in your face" folks on the other side. Look at the university professor in Kansas who wished death to NRA member's children. Look at the MDA lady who spouts such crap as "we are all Claire's mother" while those of us who have not lost a child can have no idea of what she's going through, and meanwhile she utterly ignores the fact that a "good guy with a gun stopped the bad guy with a gun" in Colorado.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Statism is a bad thing. As the term is often bandied about here, it is nothing.

    To some here, if you are not an anarcho-libertarian, you are a statist. Meh. Their assessment is so flawed as to be laughable.
    Cite?

    In my previous post I explained that you don't have to be anarcho-libertarian to not be a statist. All you have to do is put the state above individual liberty, if you don't believe the function of the state exists to protect liberties and rights then you just might be .....a statist......(imagining a Jeff Foxworthy voice)
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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