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    Showing ID

    HI, can anyone tell me if i need to show ID if i am asked by a police officer in a municipality that requires CCW for OC?

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    Such as in Wentzville, MO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    Such as in Wentzville, MO
    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is below:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0840000710.HTM
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf
    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/missouri.aspx

    MO REV STAT 571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry permit pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry permit at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry permit upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry permit holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty-five dollars.

    ----------------

    PREEMPTION
    The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms...
    MO. REV. STAT § 21.750. Firearms legislation preemption by general assembly, exceptions
    1. The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms, components, ammunition and supplies to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by any political subdivision of this state. Any existing or future orders, ordinances or regulations in this field are hereby and shall be null and void except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, RSMo, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction. This section shall take effect on January 1, 1985.

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    Careful in Wentzville, the popo not particularly friendly.

    The ID issue gets a lot of debate and false information twisted into the middle.

    RAS is not too hard for an officer to develop and you are not always aware of the totality of the situation.

    IF you have said more to them than "I do not talk to police, am I free to go" you may have given them RAS at which time ID rules change.

    Be careful, in 11 more days if Jay does nothing, those kinds of laws become less of a concern.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Careful in Wentzville, the popo not particularly friendly.

    The ID issue gets a lot of debate and false information twisted into the middle.

    RAS is not too hard for an officer to develop and you are not always aware of the totality of the situation.

    IF you have said more to them than "I do not talk to police, am I free to go" you may have given them RAS at which time ID rules change.

    Be careful, in 11 more days if Jay does nothing, those kinds of laws become less of a concern.
    What is ras

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    What is ras
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion
    Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard of proof in United States law that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch' "; it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts".

    By way of example- - -
    A man or group of men look into a store window; perfectly legal - no RAS
    A man or group of men look into a store window over a dozen times, interspersed with meetings and more looking, and then one man hurries off; perfectly legal - RAS when combined with the knowledge of how stores are 'cased' before a robbery.

    Saying that it must be 'more than an inchoate (rudimentary, undeveloped, unformed, immature,) and unparticularized suspicion or hunch' means that an officer cannot say "My highly developed spidey senses allowed me to suspect that man of criminal intent. He was a minority driving a nice car in a non-minority neighborhood at a time when all gawd-fearin' people are asleep safe in their beds. You know someone like that at that time of night is up to no good, so I pulled him over to determine what he was up to."
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-04-2014 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    What is ras
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

    Search and read the opinion.

    You have much to learn grasshopper.

    You can file a case in federal court before you get arrested if you want to attack the permit demand statue. In fed court, any constitutional argument can be made before you are arrested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

    Search and read the opinion.

    You have much to learn grasshopper.

    You can file a case in federal court before you get arrested if you want to attack the permit demand statue. In fed court, any constitutional argument can be made before you are arrested.
    You can get into real trouble for attacking statues...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    You can get into real trouble for attacking statues...
    Ha Ha

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    HI, can anyone tell me if i need to show ID if i am asked by a police officer in a municipality that requires CCW for OC?
    MO REV STAT 571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry permit pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry permit at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry permit upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry permit holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty-five dollars.

    Common sense would dictate the OC in a municipality that has a ordinance against OC, UNLESS with a CCW.... An upon approached by a LEO WHILE OC, in that municipality,you are in violation of the law, UNLESS you have a CCW. I guess if you decided NOT to produce your CCW permit, you could be fined by the state for up to 35.00, then ticketed for possible disorderly conduct in that municipality, and fined there also.... MAYBE.... IANL..
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richieg150 View Post
    MO REV STAT 571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry permit pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry permit at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry permit upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry permit holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty-five dollars.

    Common sense would dictate the OC in a municipality that has a ordinance against OC, UNLESS with a CCW.... An upon approached by a LEO WHILE OC, in that municipality,you are in violation of the law, UNLESS you have a CCW. I guess if you decided NOT to produce your CCW permit, you could be fined by the state for up to 35.00, then ticketed for possible disorderly conduct in that municipality, and fined there also.... MAYBE.... IANL..

    OK; it is illegal to drive a car without a license. Can police stop cars just to check for drivers licences???

    SCOTUS has already ruled the answer is NO absent other RAS than the person is driving. It's late and I don't have the cite in front of me.

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    In a muni with OC with CCW it does not make RAS to OC. Despite the reality of what some often do, the officer is tasked with you being innocent unless otherwise lead to a path of guilt.

    This by no means indicates it will not happen, but once it does and if you choose to go down the no ID path, just understand you are going to have to prove that he did not have RAS for the stop and yes, you might have to prove it against totally made up fabrications the officer will come up with to try and prevent civil liabilities etc.

    The act of OC nor the act of refusing to ID when not required make the trip for RAS but and it is a big but, it is the "totality of the circumstances" and you do not know what the officer knows that could give him RAS. The more you talk, the more likely you will make the RAS trip, sticking with "not answering any questions and don't consent to any searches or seizures" as your only answers is your best bet to avoide RAS and further investigation/hassle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    In a muni with OC with CCW it does not make RAS to OC. Despite the reality of what some often do, the officer is tasked with you being innocent unless otherwise lead to a path of guilt.

    This by no means indicates it will not happen, but once it does and if you choose to go down the no ID path, just understand you are going to have to prove that he did not have RAS for the stop and yes, you might have to prove it against totally made up fabrications the officer will come up with to try and prevent civil liabilities etc.

    The act of OC nor the act of refusing to ID when not required make the trip for RAS but and it is a big but, it is the "totality of the circumstances" and you do not know what the officer knows that could give him RAS. The more you talk, the more likely you will make the RAS trip, sticking with "not answering any questions and don't consent to any searches or seizures" as your only answers is your best bet to avoide RAS and further investigation/hassle.
    I live on Colorado's Western Slope and have been thanked by LEO for OCing so my prospects for such an encounter are slim but IF it happens I will go with "Am I being detained; Am I free to go" before the search/question refusal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I live on Colorado's Western Slope and have been thanked by LEO for OCing so my prospects for such an encounter are slim but IF it happens I will go with "Am I being detained; Am I free to go" before the search/question refusal.
    The free to go thing is the first answer without a doubt, I was speaking more to the post illegal stop activities. Both are useful within the right context.

    Or you can do what I did when approached once, I simply asked them to leave and stop disrupting my dinner.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK; it is illegal to drive a car without a license. Is it a criminal offense, civil offence or traffic violation? Can police stop cars just to check for drivers licences???

    SCOTUS has already ruled the answer is NO absent other RAS than the person is driving. It's late and I don't have the cite in front of me.
    Some have argued that a license is not required when traveling in you're vehicle and not partaking in commerce. And the State may said that a person is required to have a license to simply drive a vehicle from point a to point b.

    I go old school, I keep my right to travel, and they can have there butshit privilege...

    No tickets in twenty years. I defended two in court and the remainder I get a MTD before we enter the court room..

    I was ones the perry manson of traffic tickets.. Never lost a cash... oh yes,I was good.

    REgards

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    Wentzville city code:
    SECTION 210.250: WEAPONS -- CARRYING CONCEALED -- OTHER UNLAWFUL USE

    A. A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons if he/she knowingly:
    6. Openly carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;
    D. Subparagraphs (1), (6) and (7) of Subsection (A) of this Section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to Sections 571.101 to 571.121, RSMo., or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another State or political subdivision of another State.
    The rub is that "shall not apply" may or may not be ruled as the same as "is a defense against" the crime of OCing.

    If a judge ruled that shall not apply has the plain reading definition then the "drivers license" thing would (should) apply. If the judge goes the other way, "is a defense against..." then you must (should have) show/shown your endorsement and a photo ID.

    Duty to carry and display permit, penalty for violation--director of revenue immunity from liability, when.

    571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry permit pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall carry the concealed carry permit or endorsement at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry permit and a state or federal government-issued photo identification or the endorsement or permit upon the request of any peace officer.
    Now that a non-DL ID is no longer issued as a endorsement this RSMo needs to be fixed.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly25 View Post
    HI, can anyone tell me if i need to show ID if i am asked by a police officer in a municipality that requires CCW for OC?
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK; it is illegal to drive a car without a license. Can police stop cars just to check for drivers licences???

    SCOTUS has already ruled the answer is NO absent other RAS than the person is driving. It's late and I don't have the cite in front of me.
    IMHO, If I am understanding the original question...He is OC in a Muni. that is in VIOLATION of a City Ordinance WITHOUT a CCW. So...... without producing his CCW, he IS in violation of a City Ordinance, hence RAS to stop. In NKC, there is a no OC ordinance, someone I talked to a couple years ago, got a disorderly conduct charge for OC in NKC.So.... unless I'm not understanding the original question......he would need to SHOW his CCW permit to prove he IS NOT in violation of that ordinance..... Im my mind that's TOTALLY different than walking down the street, in a Muni. where OC is in no violation of any city ordinance and being approached by a LEO and asking to produce ID, for OCing..... or to be checked out......
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    I would definitely say it's not crystal clear. It'll likely take a court case to resolve. It certainly is an interesting question though.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!!

    oops,,, my bad
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 07-11-2014 at 03:40 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    You could Not be more wrong!

    If the Stazi say... Papers Please.....................
    YOU can bend over,,,,, but
    Missouri............... the show me state............ citizens are NOT required to "show their papers" on the whim of the cops...
    The cops need to "show me" their Reasonable Articulable Suspicion of a CRIME!!!
    All a cop needs to do is let a prosecutor and/or judge sort it out.

    You may beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride.

    RAS is "articulated" in a courtroom, usually.

    A cop is being polite when he explains why he is "requesting" your ID. In Missouri a cop must inform the citizen by what authority he acts when he arrests a citizen (RSMo 544.180).

    Fortunately, in MO, a citizen is arrested under the afore mentioned statue when not free to go. So, the cop must inform the citizen.

    Different states may be...umm, different.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    All a cop needs to do is let a prosecutor and/or judge sort it out.

    You may beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride.

    RAS is "articulated" in a courtroom, usually.

    A cop is being polite when he explains why he is "requesting" your ID. In Missouri a cop must inform the citizen by what authority he acts when he arrests a citizen (RSMo 544.180).

    Fortunately, in MO, a citizen is arrested under the afore mentioned statue when not free to go. So, the cop must inform the citizen.

    Different states may be...umm, different.

    You could NOT be more wrong!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    The RAS of a crime is provided by someone openly carrying a firearm. Because that can be made a crime in Missouri. The affirmative defense is the possession of a CCW permit. You are welcome not to use your defense, but I would not recommend it.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    The RAS of a crime is provided by someone openly carrying a firearm. Because that can be made a crime in Missouri. The affirmative defense is the possession of a CCW permit. You are welcome not to use your defense, but I would not recommend it.
    Okay, this is getting tiresome but let's play the game.

    It's a suspicion of what crime in the Missouri code? Arson? Burglary? Check fraud? What?

    "Your Honor, I saw the defendant openly carrying a handgun and that gave me a reasonable suspicion that he was in violation of Missouri Revised Statute 571. _______ (fill in the blank).
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-09-2014 at 04:20 PM.

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    The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.

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  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    The crime of openly carrying a firearm, just like I said. In Missouri, political subdivisions can make it illegal to carry a firearm.
    But that may change soon: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...?122574-Sb-656

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