Showing ID

[Fallschirjmäger]

You had me worried there for a second as I searched both codes back and forth to see which had a subsection 2 that was problematical.

What's the penalty for violating a municipal code in Missouri? Not hard labor I hope, I'm allergic to real work.

 

[LMTD]

It is the "totality" of the circumstances

RAS is complex and simple at the same time.

If a Muni restricts OC to persons with a ccw, a MWG call comes in, the officer sees the person OC, he does NOT have RAS to check to see if they have a CCW license.

He CAN initiate casual contact just like they can anyone else. He MAY develop RAS from that casual contact. They are in fact trained to do so, persons not familiar with it should quickly get familiar with it if they intend upon OC'ing in areas where it has any type of restriction.

The "do I have to show ID" question is not answerable without context. Generically an officer may not walk up and just demand your ID whether OC or not, however under other circumstances when an officer may have developed RAS and that officer is under no obligation to inform you of any of the facts, he is in fact NOT ON YOUR SIDE, he works for the prosecutor, not you.

A practical determination can somewhat be made by how the ID is asked for, but again it is not perfect. If an officer ASK you for something, they likely have NO AUTHORITY to get it from you, if they DEMAND it, they likely do have said authority, thought that does not mean it is in your best interest to give it to them, it COULD be.

The key is knowing and understanding your own rights and asserting them within the rules of law. When you see some of the youtube videos that involve encounters with the police, much of what you see is kind of stupid. When you hear some dipstick hollaring about their fifth amendment rights and then they continue to speak afterwards, they clearly have no idea of what they are talking about. Once you say it, you have to stop talking or it is generally accepted that you have waived that right by continuing to speak.

No one here can answer the question of ID requirements, it is a legal question for a lawyer. Two municipalities in MO DO have stop and identify laws on the books, the constitutionality of them is questionable but they do exist.

Don't take my advice or anyone else here, ask a lawyer, your freedom may depend upon it.

 

[Richieg150]

RAS is complex and simple at the same time.

If a Muni restricts OC to persons with a ccw, a MWG call comes in, the officer sees the person OC, he does NOT have RAS to check to see if they have a CCW license.

If you are driving your car, without your seat belt, and are spotted driving by a LEO, they can pull you over and ticket you for that City Ordinance Violation. If you are OC in a city with a NO OC Ordinance, OR a no OC ordinance UNLESS you have a CCW......why would being cited for this be any different than driving without a seat belt...... You are in violation of their city ordinance, which is a offense, crime, ect... You can be asked for ID, from a LEO, if they see you committing a crime..... OC ANYWHERE that restricts OC... is a crime, a violation,ect, whatever you want to call it........ Im not following how you figure that you DONT have to produce ID while,during,after breaking a city ordinance and having a LEO witness the violation??? Come to North Kansas City Missouri, and OC there....they have a NO OC ordinance......it will likely result in a Disorderly Conduct charge at least.......or thats what has happened in the past to a couple i have talked to that DIDNT realize they had traveled into NKC from KC, where OC in non restricted. There seems to be lots of opinions and views all over, everybody is entitled to theirs.... but Im from Missouri, the Show Me State....anybody who thinks along the lines of OC in a no OC city, is OK, and you dont, wont, refuse, dont have to show ID to a LEO who SEES the city ordinance violation, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.... DONT get me wrong Im not for showing ID without RAS...... but breaking the law, is just that, breaking the law. So to those who feel such an encounter would NOT meet RAS.......feel free to come and put your opinions to the test.... I will be in your corner rooting for you......and we can see how it turns out.

 

[kcgunfan]

LMTD, I'm not sure I understand how carrying a sidearm where it is illegal doesn't serve as RAS of illegally carrying a firearm. Could you walk me through the thinking on that?

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[LMTD]

Quick point, just because you THINK IT does not make it so. Missouri does NOT have a primary violation seat belt law and they can NOT stop you for only that, there HAS to be a primary violation first or the stop is 100% illegal, look it up.

Now on to the OC with CCW demand issue.

It is against the law to drive a car without a license however the act of driving a car does NOT warrant a license check and a lot of popo have gotten into trouble for it in the past and a lot of case law makes it very clear, I do not have them handy.

If the act of carrying a firearm is legal in ay capacity, the officer may NOT assume one is carrying it illegally and just check. It is not by ANY MEANS what so ever saying they WON'T but when they do, they are opening themselves and the city to a big law suit, several have indeed happened in the last four to five years.

I am also trying to be perfectly clear that RAS is needed and it is not a hard thing to satisfy and they do NOT have to inform you of how they developed it. Robbery 2 blocks away by a guy with a red coat and you have a red coat on etc. You made eye contact with the officer and suddenly turned and headed away from him at a much faster pace. Visibly and excessively agitated etc. It is about everything combined, not just one thing so if you get into an interaction with an i=officer and you opt not to show ID, you had better be well educated in how you need to handle it.

My point is too many folks beat the "never hand over id" drum and despite the opinion, it can most certainly become a required element and taking you for a ride to the station to identify you IS an option if there is enough evidence even if you are completely free from guilt.

TV created the "stop and check license and registration or the routine traffic stop" they never existed in reality and though it has indeed happened, those cases have been tossed.

You are carrying a gun, it is not a violation to do so, hhe can't just check because he wants to. So many of the popo in the videos have expressed "just checking to be sure you are not a felon in possession" and they are lucky to have their house when it is all said and done. typically a city has to pay out around 20k for such mistakes by law enforcement.

 

[JoeSparky]

LMTD, I'm not sure I understand how carrying a sidearm where it is illegal doesn't serve as RAS of illegally carrying a firearm. Could you walk me through the thinking on that?

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It is ONLY illegal if one doesn't have a permit. How does the LEO know you don't have a permit? That is the RAS that he DOESN"T have!

 

[F350]

It is ONLY illegal if one doesn't have a permit. How does the LEO know you don't have a permit? That is the RAS that he DOESN"T have!

Exactly! As said before; driving a car without a license is illegal but just because you are driving a car the police CAN NOT stop you just for a license check; so saith the Supreme Court of the United States. SOOOO carry a handgun where and when legal does not constitute RAS, so saith the Supreme Court of the United States.

Openly carrying handgun where open carry is ILLEGAL does amount to RAS if not PC.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

It is ONLY illegal if one doesn't have a permit. How does the LEO know you don't have a permit? That is the RAS that he DOESN"T have!

Correct.
"How do I know you aren't ________" is not an articulable suspicion; "I suspect you are plotting arson because you just splashed a car with gasoline and are carrying a lit flare" is both articulable and reasonable.

If an officer say a woman walking down the street in a city where prostitution was illegal, would "How do I know you're not a prostitute?" be RAS to detain and question?

 

[Richieg150]

Openly carrying handgun where open carry is ILLEGAL does amount to RAS if not PC.

DITTO, that's what I'm sayin, opencarrying where it is ILLEGAL to do so.....

 

[LMTD]

DITTO, that's what I'm sayin, opencarrying where it is ILLEGAL to do so.....

There are three types of areas in mo when it comes to OC, illegal, with a CCW, and unrestricted.

The illegal areas make it moot, you are breaking the law short of being one of the few exceptions such as LEO, They so to speak do not have RAS but actual PC to arrest so ID is a totally moot point, you do not have to give it up, but if you have it on your person they are going to seize it and if you do not, you are required to identify yourself or be detained until they identify you.

The discussion has been that in an area where a permit is required that the sight of the firearm is RAS of a crime until the officer checks the permit and that is NOT correct.

 

[Richieg150]

Openly carrying handgun where open carry is ILLEGAL does amount to RAS if not PC.

DITTO, that's what I'm sayin, opencarrying where it is ILLEGAL to do so.....