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HERE IT IS - 1st Norfolk Incident

sjhipple

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LEO 229 wrote:
Banks get robbed. There are times when they have looks-outs and get-a-way drivers. He could have been a look out for all anyone knew.

And cops shoot black men...alot more than people rob banks. Statistically, if anyone should've had their gun drawn, it was danbus.

don't you swear to uphold the constitution? if you feel you can't do that AND keep yourself safe, find a job you are capable of and move on. My rights are more valuable than your inadequacies.
 

sjhipple

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Myspace SUCKS!! Post this on Google or Youtube if you can, Danbus.

And, Dan, thanks for taking the stress of being accosted and being on the receiving end of an aggravated assault on behalf of my rights. It means alot to me. All of us know we may take a bullet for exercising our rights, but not all of us come as close to it as you did. People like you are my heroes. I hope justice is done in the end.

And Dan, you're doing well to stay out of the fray on this. Don't say much if anything about this incident except to your lawyer...whom you should hire post haste.

LEO 229...I promised I wouldn't get into any more flame wars, but your veiled threats about Dan "learning his lesson" are making it hard ;):(...I'll keep my promise though.
 

vrwmiller

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CaptainCharles wrote:
Maybe I am confused,,,,but are banks off limits to OC/CC in VA??? Banks in general, not ones posted...
No, absolutely not! Banks are not off-limits for either mode of carry unless posted. Even then, the sign carries little weight, if any, in VA. One must be asked to leave before the weight of law can be used.
 

DreQo

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...Statistically, if anyone should've had their gun drawn, it was danbus....
I posed a question on another thread a while ago. The question was, what would you do if someone, claiming to be a LEO (uniform or not), suddenly drew his weapon on you when you were doing absolutely nothing illegal. If it were another plain citizen, and you were armed, you'd draw and shoot since they've just threatened you with a gun for no reason...but what if this one happened to be in a uniform?

Lets put this into a different perspective, and speculate. Lets say that it is eventually determined the the LEOs in the video were wrong, and approaching Danbus with guns drawn was illegal. If that's the case, then it would go to say that Danbus would have been in his legal right to shoot that officer in self defense, right? Maybe LEO's need to start thinking about that...
 

vrwmiller

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sjhipple wrote:
vrwmiller wrote:
Even then, the sign carries little weight, if any, in VA. One must be asked to leave before the weight of law can be used.
Is that true? Can you post a link or something?
From what I have found, it is true. There have been discussions here on OCDO about the topic, I believe with cites to case law. I cannot pull them up for you right now, but will see if I can do so in the next couple of days.
 

Pa. Patriot

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TheApostle wrote:
Dear Mr. Patriot,

I will take the high horse on the high road and simply decline to meet your challenge. Thank you for the invitation to join this brawl, but I do decline.

My opinion is this: there are too many opinions already, and not enough fact.

My, my. Mr. Apostle. I'm disappointed! With a name like that I expected a bit more, shall we say, conviction? :)

Why don't you tell the truth now, Simon? The truth is that you rode in here on your high horse chanting the old tired mantra of how the Brady bunch is :celebrate over this conversation. You learned a hard lesson that folks who live liberty as intended could care absolutely less about what the Brady bunch thinks. Our conversations here have nothing to do with their agenda and you know it. You think that by conjuring up such an image you can scare people into submission. HA - think again ;)

Further, you insist your position is superior but you of course won't share it.... Ahh, the school yard tactics of Hanky T. (are you two related?)
Ayway, yes. Do take the "high road". Your position is already known anyway.

Something you LEO (you are LEO, right?)don't seem to grasp is that you possess no special powers over mere civilians (because you ARE civilians) to draw weapons on people.
You can not legally draw on someone that I could not. I know you'll try and rationalize it but you will NOT find a point os LAW to support such rogue behavior.

THAT is why you "decline the invitation to brawl". Because you have already lost, Simon.

As for facts. That has been addressed already by those before me. All I can add is you must not have read the facts in the other threads concerning this incident. As if the video wasn't enough. You will contend that OC in front of a bank is RAS, I will contend that this will apply to LEO too, and should draw on LEO in front of a bank. Happy? Your idea after all...
What about santa? (EX-Cop, BTW -LOL!)
Muslim women ?
Maybe a clown?
Ok, Ok... How about Firefighter 0_o, There's a scary one!
Trees?




In tyranny, never does the tyrant admit to being a tyrant, only to being superior over those whom he suppresses. and THAT, my friends is exactly what we are seeing here.

Signed, Pa. Patriot ~ The OC Apostle
 

Thundar

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Was the police officer brandishing a firearm and violating the law? The applicable VA Code:

18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-69.2; 1968, c. 513; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1990, cc. 588, 599; 1992, c. 735; 2003, c. 976; 2005, c. 928.)

Were the police officer's actions legal? I think not.

The Police Officer exemption in Subparagraph B is for making an arrest of a person that is brandishing. Dan was not brandishing, his gun was in a holster.If a jury decides that having a gun pointed at your head "reasonably induced fear" then the police officer committed a class 1 misdemeanor (punishable by up to 1 year in jail). I read Terry v. Ohio twice. Nowhere did it say police may commit crimes while conducting a "Terry Stop".

If I were on a criminal jury, I would vote guilty. (I use jury here, but it is very likely that this would be a bench trial in Virginia.)

If I were a juror in a civil trial, Dan would have a significant award. The award would be significant not because of what the police officer did, but because of the lack of corrective action from the police department or the city after the incident.
 

Thundar

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In front of a bank is not a justification

There is no relevance to in front of a bank. If we accept that this is O.K. in front of a bank:

what about a pharmacy (dangerous drugs)?

A convenience store (held up a lot more often than banks)?

an ATM machine (mini bank without a guard to protect you)?

A pawn shop (they have , eek, guns in there)?

A school (not on school grounds, please do not take this thread there)?

If it were "O.K." because it were in front of a _________ -fill in from above-,

then all of downtown Great Bridge (where I live) would be an Open Carry = police are allowed to point a gun at your head zone.
 

sjhipple

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Dan, watching again, I believe that the police said something to the effect that if you're in your car and they can't see the gun, it's concealed. Now, I don't think that's true, but I'd keep your gun on your seat while your in your car just to be safe. The seat is definitely "plain view." Anything else is a gray area and not something I'd like to leave to chance.

Do you plan on gettinga CHP?
 

danbus

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TheApostle wrote:
SP101 wrote:
danbus wrote:
LEO have the ability to perform a "terry stop" in which you just saw in the vid. The exception to this is "probable cause".

Did the LEOs have "probable cause"? If yes, explain. Could they articulate reasonable facts that I previously, just did, or am about to commit a crime? If yes, please explain. If not, then the LEOs are violating my 4th, plain and simple. Once the LEO said that I wasn't doing anything illegal, then there isn't ANY probable cause. I wasn't doing ANYTHING illegal, however, the responding LEOs did not know that if I was or wasn't. However, to search my person (not a "frisk" or pat down) without probable cause is grounds for violation of the 4th.

LEO 229, are you ever going to answer Dan's questions? I think it is very rude of you to keep ignoring him.:(

For one thing the question is incorrectly posed, and has not been reworded properly. Reasonable suspicion is required for a Terry stop, not probably cause. PC gets you handcuffed and taken before the magistrate to have warrants sworn out on you. RS gives grounds for a Terry stop, to prove or disprove PC. Thats all. During a terry stop, a pat down is permissible, and since only RS is needed, a violation of the 4th amendment is not there.

Thank you. Now I can reword my question and allowLEO229 to answer them.

1. Did the LEOs have "reasonable suspicion" for a Terry Stop? If so, explain.

2. What "reasonable"facts, could the LEOs articulatethat I just committed,was committing, or am about to commit an illegal act? Please include statues that I was violating.

*And for the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION*

3. After the LEO explained that I wasn't doing anything illegal, what "reasonable suspicion" could the LEO articulate that I just committed, was committing, or am about to commit an illegal act?



It's plain and simple. No "reasonable suspicion"= no Terry Stop.


“... it is simply fantastic to urge that such a procedure performed in public by a policeman while the citizen stands helpless, perhaps facing a wall with his hands raised, is a ‘petty indignity.’ It is a serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person, which may inflict great indignity and arouse strong resentment, and it is not to be undertaken lightly.” (392 U.S. 1, at 16–17) -Terry v Ohio
 

danbus

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sjhipple wrote:
Dan, watching again, I believe that the police said something to the effect that if you're in your car and they can't see the gun, it's concealed. Now, I don't think that's true, but I'd keep your gun on your seat while your in your car just to be safe. The seat is definitely "plain view." Anything else is a gray area and not something I'd like to leave to chance.

Do you plan on gettinga CHP?

1st incident - 6/29/7

2nd incident - 7/3/07

Got my permit - 7/6/07

I was in the 45 days till permit when all this transpired.
 

Thundar

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LEO 229,

The question to you might be rhetorical, but your answer seems very disingenuous. Appropriate is not a standard, it is very subjective. If it is lawful for a police officer to brandish a firearm in front of a bank (class 1 misdemeanor in VA), then where else is it inappropriate for citizens to Open Carry?
 

psmartin

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Thundar wrote:
LEO 229,

The question to you might be rhetorical, but your answer seems very disingenuous. Appropriate is not a standard, it is very subjective. If it is lawful for a police officer to brandish a firearm in front of a bank (class 1 misdemeanor in VA), then where else is it inappropriate for citizens to Open Carry?


The proper procedure is to dial your local police department and submit a list of places you plan to visit, then ask their opinion of where it would be wise to carry.

HINT: Leave your gun at home, it is for officer safety.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The police who should be MOST cautious of violence are game wardens.. Heck, they go out every day to ticket hunters.. I don't know about you, but if I was "ignoring logic & common sense" 6 or 7 guys with high-velocity shotgun loads seem a lot more deadly than 1 guy with a pistol.

Oh.. wait.. The game warden sees 6-7 "white guys" with shotguns as "no threat", but 1 "non-white guy" is a "threat"

I have no personal animosity towards the police, it's the para-military attitude that really pisses me off.
 

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Kevin108

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Ghettokracker71 wrote:
I'd bet hes the first douchebag doughnut eating peice of shit LEO to stop and unlawfully harrass a legal citizen
Personal insults, infighting, and name-calling do not reflect well upon this forum. You can disagree but keep things civil.
 

Kevin108

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LEO 229 wrote:
He made a poor decision and he knew the sirens were for him. He even said he "who cares" and "oh there they are" like it was no big deal the cops were running code to get to his location.

I don't think legal open carry is a poor decision at all! A criminal would run at the sound of sirens. A law-abiding citizen who has nothing to worry about shouldn't have to give the sound of sirens a second thought. Besides, he was in downtown Norfolk. There was absolutely no way to know where they were going.
 

Kevin108

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XD Owner wrote:
To paraphrase, calling someone a feminine hygiene item or a vulgarity referring to the point of egress of the digestive tract is not what I expect to see on what is probably my favorite firearm discussion board. Maybe the moderator can delete some of that offensive language?

I wish we had a moderator. :?
 

HankT

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Kevin108 wrote:
XD Owner wrote:
To paraphrase, calling someone a feminine hygiene item or a vulgarity referring to the point of egress of the digestive tract is not what I expect to see on what is probably my favorite firearm discussion board. Maybe the moderator can delete some of that offensive language?

I wish we had a moderator. :?

Like a safety, the best moderator is between your ears. Use it.

How dainty and delicate some folks eyes must be...
 

Kevin108

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No, but there has been more than one thread in this section absolutely ruined with off-topic nonsense and personal insults. Concern about the image people like that portray is probably why the VCDL doesn't have it's own forum. I think it would be nice to have a moderator shake things up for those who would cause problems, that's all.
 

HankT

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Kevin108 wrote:
Concern about the image people like that portray is probably why the VCDL doesn't have it's own forum.
I don't see how this makes sense. If VCDL had its own forum, wouldn't PVC and the board run it (including moderation) any way they felt like?
 
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