HERE IT IS - 1st Norfolk Incident

[grimstar]

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Well, now that we are "in agreement" that what danbus was doing was not in any way illegal, only "inappropriate"...I guess that it's ok for LEO's to draw down on someone for doing something "inappropriate".

I guess I'd better be careful that my socks match my pants tomorrow...I wouldn't want to accidentally be shot by the Fashion Police. [sarcasm mode = off]

I also find the "us vs. everyone else in the world" attitude being displayed by LEO 229 a bit disturbing. I had thought, from previous posts, that he was on our side. I'm beginning to see that the only side that cops, good or bad, are on...is their own side.

For an example of how an encounter with Law Enforcement should go...see my latest post in the NC section.

Carry safe, Carry often,

Grimstar

 

[JeffersonDavis]

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LEO 229 wrote:

JeffersonDavis wrote:

Well when YOU feel threatened by lawful acts you feel like you can pull a gun. Now when YOU are bored you want a thread locked. Your perception of self-importance bothers me..........

SNIP...

How did that post contribute to the threat except as a personal attack.

I guess it didn't contribute because, all I really wanted to do was attack you......... And anyone else so emboldened to harass and intimidate the law abiding citizen.

 

[Bubba Ron]

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LEO 229 wrote:

Bubba Ron wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

You correctly identified the proper word "Inappropriate" as this is what it is. Not unlawful.... just appropriateness.

Wow - since when do you get to determine what's "appropriate"? I thought police officers followed and enforced the LAWS of our cities, states and country.

Why are you asking me???? Ask Thundar. He thinks I know.

I was talking about something legal being inappropriate vs unlawful.

Get over it man.

LEO229 - I quoted YOUR statement - you're loosing it,man - since when do you get to determine what's appropriate!!

 

[danbus]

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“‘good faith on the part of the arresting officer is not enough.’ . . . If subjective good faith alone were the test, the protections of the Fourth Amendment would evaporate, and the people would be ‘secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,’ only in the discretion of the police.” — quoting Beck v. Ohio, 379 U.S. 89 (1964)

 

[Thundar]

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LEO 229 wrote:

occva wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Now he knows not to mess around in front of a bank.

Could you please post all other places I should avoid using my rights?

Thanks

In regards to packing a gun openly in these modern times.....

I am not going to hold your hand.. use common sense. If you have any.

If in doubt..leave the gun at home. Your supposed to be adult enough to know when and where is appropriate.

LEO 229 - "appropriate" was yourword on Saturday.

The "Assclown" comment from the Tony's restaurant incident, the Harborfest assault, Dan's incident and LEO 229's "apropriate" comment. What is the comon denominator? Police attitude towards OC.

This attitude is a form of prejudice.It is wrong and law abiding citizens should not be made to suffer because of it.Police should obey the law, not make excuses as to why the lawdoes not apply to them.

Stop the police OC harassment.It weakens the bond between law abiding people and the police. It degrades the majority of police who work dangerous,stressful and often thankless jobs trying to keep us safe.

If a police officer cannot accept OC as part of the landscape, then they should resign.

 

[gsh341]

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LEO 229,

I openly carry in banks all the time. Not just my bank, but banks all over the state of SD and MN. Every now and then I get an odd look, but never have I had the cops called on me. No one has ever asked me to leave and no one has ever freaked out and left upon seeing me enter.

Having a guninside a bank is not illegal. Having a gun OUTSIDE a bank is also NOT illegal. Officers should use caution when approaching a person that is obviously armed, but should not be pointing a weapon at them or handcuffing them without cause.

Danbus' actions were entirely legal, even if the guards in the bank were concerned, and the police overreacted in this case. Thebig question is, would the cops or the bank guardshave reacted in the exact same manner if Danbus was white?

I'm not bashing cops, just stating facts.

 

[danbus]

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gsh341 wrote:

LEO 229,

I openly carry in banks all the time. Not just my bank, but banks all over the state of SD and MN. Every now and then I get an odd look, but never have I had the cops called on me. No one has ever asked me to leave and no one has ever freaked out and left upon seeing me enter.

Having a guninside a bank is not illegal. Having a gun OUTSIDE a bank is also NOT illegal. Officers should use caution when approaching a person that is obviously armed, but should not be pointing a weapon at them or handcuffing them without cause.

Danbus' actions were entirely legal, even if the guards in the bank were concerned, and the police overreacted in this case. Thebig question is, would the cops or the bank guardshave reacted in the exact same manner if Danbus was white?

I'm not bashing cops, just stating facts.

Seeing how the first incident took place on 6/29/07 (Friday), Rev and I went to downtown Norfolk, same place, same time, on 7/2/07 (Monday) and nothing happened.

However, on 7/3/07 (Tuesday) I was at the same place, same time, but this time, they came for me again.

Hmmmmm...

I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on that.

 

[wsweeks2]

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LEO 229 wrote:

wsweeks2 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

mzbk2l wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Sorry you had to be held at gun point.

Were you in front of a bank?

Should it matter?

(Not being a smart-*ss.... in some states we can legally carry in a bank. Standing in front of - or inside of - a bank is no more grounds for police harrassment than standing in my own front yard.)

Yes....

This happens at banks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t42RNpZsT4E&mode=related&search=

So anyone outside a bank openly carrying a gun is guilty until proven innocent if they survive the felony stop?

Innocent and guilt are determined in court.

If deemed necessary.... make the scene safe and figure out what is going on. If the guy is not a threat to his self or others... let him go on his way.

People.... the police want to live too.. Just like why you carry your guns.

The police have to confront people WITH guns who they do not know. You are not required to do that. Some people are crazy and kill people.. and cops are always a big target..

Remember Kennedy??? He was law abiding as he walked around the back lot of that station while armed.... Just before he used an AK-47 to kill two cops.

Take a look at this case and tell me if the LEO's acted in line with what the SCOTUS has ruled:

Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=757&issue_id=122005#2

I'm thinking that Danbus did nothing more than exercise his rights while black.

 

[Mike]

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That's a good case; PA SC has a good case too - Hawkins I believe is the name of one of the parties; is cited in Ortiz case.

 

[danbus]

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Take a look at this case and tell me if the LEO's acted in line with what the SCOTUS has ruled:

Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=757&issue_id=122005#2

I'm thinking that Danbus did nothing more than exercise his rights while black.

Ahhh, yes, thanks so much. I've been looking for something like this.

 

[Reverend73]

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Dan, do you have the 911 call? Post it if you do.

 

[Marco]

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http://www.courts.state.pa.us/opposting/supreme/opinions/0497pdf/k00jiz95.pdf

 

[vrwmiller]

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Reverend73 wrote:

Dan, do you have the 911 call? Post it if you do.

Yes, please do. I am very interested in seeing it as well.

 

[danbus]

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vrwmiller wrote:

Reverend73 wrote:

Dan, do you have the 911 call? Post it if you do.

Yes, please do. I am very interested in seeing it as well.

I only have the 2nd incident911 call on cassette, however I don't have the means of converting it to a mp3.

Do you know anyone who does?

 

[Mordis]

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LEO 229 is a fine example of the "thin blue sheild" that all cops wear. Irregardless of weather or not a officers actions were wrong and/or illegal they will say and do(i.e coverup) to protect that officer. Im reminded of the scirprico incident in the '70's. He turned over a crap load of dirty cops, and in return he recieved no back up and got shot. It happens all the time, we just dont hear about it, unless its something that gets out to the news. I know for a fact it happens, i have familial experiance with it.

Fact of the matter, the only people whos opnion on this matters is a average normal persons. The same type of person that will be on danbus's jury to decide how much to pay him. Any sane person would give him a payout. I know i would with out a doubt.

Cops are sapposed to be professionals. I expect them, when responding to a call, to be calm, cool and collective in there thoughts and assesments. In that situation, i would have had one officer question, danbus, and sent the other inside to bank to asses the interior situation. If there was a problem going on inside you would notice it almost immediately.

I expect cops to think out rationaly, and not draw down on someone who was not messing around infront of a bank with a gun, but just infact sitting/standing there. I dont call that messing around.

Its cops like these that shouldnt wear a badge, they went in, with out thinking, with out looking, with out any preparation. All they saw was a black man with a gun, and went condition red on him. They failed to think calmly cooly and rationaly, and inturn will not only they but there whole dept, face a lawsuit, that has a great chance of being won by dan.

Cops wounder why citizens hate them so much. Almost every cop i talk to is on a power trip. Acting all egotisitical and spouting the Im better then you mantra. They come up to your car with a attitude, making you scared out of your mind. Every time one comes up tome, im shaking with fear. And i know im not the only person who is afraid of them. Alot of them act like tyrants with a badge.

Edit: And what the hell is up with every cop i talk to thinking that it is unwise for a citizen to carry a gun. Bat54 will remember this, A Pizza joint got held up and the manager went for a gun, but he went for it to late, the robber had a gun to his head at the time he went for it and blew the managers off. The pizza joint was TASTY PIZZA. The cops did a interview with the local news tv and said that the best thing a citizen is to do is not carry agun, becuase it could be used against them.

On top of that setiment, i hear the "only police are trained to use them" speach alot. Which in ft.Wayne is crap. I personaly know alot of cops, and have some in my family. Almost all of them, only practice when its time to qualify(Which is how often my family member practices, and my neighbors which are cops and about 75% of my cop friends). Which is twice a year. AT the least i shoot and train twice a month, at the least. How is it then, that they are more qualified and trained then i am.

 

[Reverend73]

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can you post a transcript of it? How long is it?



If you have a serial cord going from the headphone jack on the cassette recorder to the microphone jack on your computer, I think you can save it as an mp3.

 

[wsweeks2]

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Mordis, I really agree with your post.

I will point out that at a recent gun show here in Macon Georgia, a few of us were working a recruting table for GeorgiaCarry.org and had a conversation with a gentleman who claimed to be a LEO. He told us flat out that he doesn't care about the law - that's what the judges are there for. He said that he does whatever he wants in the field and deals with it when it gets to court.

That mentality is what really scares me about LEO's. I think that LEO229 is one of the minority in law enforcement these days as well, but I don't agree with his stance on this issue in particular.

Go get 'em Danbus!!!

 

[CPerdue]

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If you have a serial cord going from the headphone jack on the cassette recorder to the microphone jack on your computer, I think you can save it as an mp3.

Yep, that will work, probably with software already on your machine (and there are lots offreeware tools available if you need).

FOIA, FOIA, FOIA!Roanoke sent me recordings as MP3 on a CD -they probably had to go look to find a tape recorder,jeeze!

 

[wsweeks2]

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danbus wrote:

Take a look at this case and tell me if the LEO's acted in line with what the SCOTUS has ruled:

Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=757&issue_id=122005#2

I'm thinking that Danbus did nothing more than exercise his rights while black.

Ahhh, yes, thanks so much. I've been looking for something like this.

The thing to take note of is that regardless of how the police were made aware of the presence of a firearm, it alone does not justify a Terry stop. Even if the tip was anonymous and the facts were corroborated, it still does not meet the requirements necessary for the Terry stop either.

 

[danbus]

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Alrighty, here is the dialogue to the 2nd incident 911 call.

START

911 Dispatch – Norfolk Police, Fire Rescue?

Caller – Yes m’am, I’m calling from 2 Commercial Place in Norfolk, VA.

911 – Uh huh.

Caller – And there is a man...He was here last week with uh um, a gun.

911 – Okay.

Caller – And he’s back AGAIN standing outside with his gun.

911 – Okay, what is the name of this place?

Caller – Um, it’s Bank of America.

911 – Okay.

Caller – I’m by the, 1 Commercial, the big Bank of America building in downtown Norfolk.

911 – Uh huh.

Caller - And he’s standing right outside the plaza.

911 – Okay, hold on one second. Did he used to work there or something?

Caller – No, as far as I know, his wife works and I guess he picks her up, but he’s outside like with his gun.

911 – What’s he doing with it, is he waiving it?

Caller – Um no,it’s like he’s got his shirt tucked, and it’s like he’s got his gun in his waist.

911 – Okay, so, is he standing in front of 2 or 1?

Caller – 1.

911 – And what does he look like?

Caller – Um, black male, about 5’6, 5’7, he got on a black tshirt with black pants.

911 – Okay. And you said it’s in his waist.

Caller – Yes.

911 – Hold on. So his wife works where at Bank of America?

Caller – I believe so, yes.

911 – Okay, do you want to leave your name and number?

Caller – My name is **** and my phone number is *****.

911 – Okay, I’ve got it in, we’ll have police up.

Caller – Okay, thank you.

911 – Thank you, bye-bye.

Caller – Bye.



END.



*sigh*

It pains me to not be able to stand on the corner of justice. But yes, there was no reason to preform a Terry Stop for either incident.